Comments on Trying to repair a legacy fit for late night comicsTypePad2009-11-15T11:51:55ZDavid Bognerhttps://www.treppenwitz.com/tag:typepad.com,2003:https://www.treppenwitz.com/2009/11/another-fallacious-argument/comments/atom.xml/psachya commented on 'Trying to repair a legacy fit for late night comics'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef0120a6a7d9f0970b2009-11-16T21:35:44Z2009-11-16T21:35:44ZpsachyaAw, leave poor ol' Bubba alone. His revisionism isn't nearly as harmful as that of his fellow ex-Prez, Jimmy "Peace...<p>Aw, leave poor ol' Bubba alone. His revisionism isn't nearly as harmful as that of his fellow ex-Prez, Jimmy "Peace Not Apartheid" Carter.</p>
<p>And I'll say this much - had Rabin not been assassinated, Israel may well have been much more peaceful. Why? Because once he was martyred for the cause, woe to any Israeli politician who didn't at least give lip service to Palestinian sovereignty, land-for-peace, and constant concessions with zero in return. Eventually, had he lived, Rabin would have probably been defeated politically, and the whole concept would have collapsed of its own weight, thus saving countless lives lost to the cause in the years since.</p>
<p>Or maybe not. In any case, probably not what Mr. Clinton had in mind.</p>soccer dad commented on 'Trying to repair a legacy fit for late night comics'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef012875a91229970c2009-11-16T17:27:32Z2009-11-16T17:27:32Zsoccer dadhttp://soccerdad.baltiblogs.comConsider that after PM Rabin was assassinated, over the next few weeks his successor, Shimon Peres withdrew from Kalkilye, Jenin,...<p>Consider that after PM Rabin was assassinated, over the next few weeks his successor, Shimon Peres withdrew from Kalkilye, Jenin, Nablus, Ramallah, Tulkarem and (I think) Bethlehem. These were withdrawals that Rabin to that point had not made.</p>
<p>Now did Arafat become more amenable to peace? No. Given even more authority he failed to secure the cities Israel withdrew from and in early 1996 Israel was struck by a series of terror attacks. Up until those attacks, Peres likely would have won re-election on account of the post-assassination backlash against Netanyahu.</p>
<p>In other words, Clinton blames the failure of peace on Israel or what happened in Israel. In fact it was the Palestinian failure to stop terror that made the "peace process" such an anathema in Israel.</p>Sabba Hillel commented on 'Trying to repair a legacy fit for late night comics'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef0120a6a6a30b970b2009-11-16T17:05:20Z2009-11-16T17:05:20ZSabba HillelI think you might be able to say "Bill Clinton could have been correct for the wrong reasons". Peace might...<p>I think you might be able to say</p>
<p>"Bill Clinton could have been correct for the wrong reasons". Peace might have "broken out" when Israel decided to <b>not</b> surrender as Ariel Sharon did at Gush Katif. Then again, perhaps the extreme left might have collapsed had they not had the "Rabin legacy" card to play. Consider the conspiracy theories of the Rabin assassination (:-)</p>
<p>THen again, we do not have to ability to go to "alternate history worlds" as in science fiction novels. All we can do is live in the world that we are faced with.<br />
</p>Bryan commented on 'Trying to repair a legacy fit for late night comics'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef012875a78399970c2009-11-16T11:51:13Z2009-11-16T11:51:13ZBryanSimon...That is exactly the reason that we shouldn't compromise with them at all. The Arabs perceive compromise as weakness and...<p>Simon...That is exactly the reason that we shouldn't compromise with them at all. The Arabs perceive compromise as weakness and will never accept anything that our leaders will offer them, holding out constantly for more in the hope that the next time the political pendulem swings to the left that there will be a yet greater appeaser at the helm who will eventually grant them their maximalist positions (And thus ensuring our own self destruction)</p>treppenwitz commented on 'Trying to repair a legacy fit for late night comics'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef012875a6defe970c2009-11-16T07:09:27Z2009-11-16T07:09:27Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.comIlana-Davita ... I'd guess he doesn't much care what a little blogger in Israel thinks. :-) Fred... Which is why...<p>Ilana-Davita ... I'd guess he doesn't much care what a little blogger in Israel thinks. :-)</p>
<p>Fred... Which is why I added the bit about compliance.</p>
<p>Simon ... At every step of my post I made it clear that I am making supposition and that none of the points (mine or Clinton's) can be proved. That is exactly my problem with his statement. It's as if McCain had made a speech and said the economy would be in much better shape if he had been elected. We can never know since he wasn't.</p>
<p>Gary... The old demographic time bomb story is just that. Jewish birthrates (especially in Judea and Samaria) are just as high (and in some areas higher) than those of the Arabs. Inside the green line it isn't that much different since the Religious sector of the Jewish population is far outstripping everyone (except maybe the Bedouin) in terms of family size. But any way you look at it, there is no connection between the demographics and peace... at least as far as the Arabs are concerned. Our presence here is the problem, and even if we were a 99% majority, they would be at war with us. </p>Gary commented on 'Trying to repair a legacy fit for late night comics'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef0120a6a47d08970b2009-11-16T06:49:46Z2009-11-16T06:49:46ZGaryI don't know if what I heard Clinton say is from the same speech you cite here, David, but I...<p>I don't know if what I heard Clinton say is from the same speech you cite here, David, but I heard Clinton's audio clip on Reshet Bet online Sunday night (Monday AM for you) and he brought up the problem of demographics vs. democracy. He raised the problem of Israel as a democratic state (rights for all citizens within its borders) vs. the growing number and birth rate of Palestinians. I think he actually said "They're having more babies than you." This seems to be the more essential problem, in my mind, and the specific personalities involved (Rabin, Sharon, Clinton, Abbas, Netanyahu, or whoever from years past) are not as important. Big deal, so Clinton thinks Rabin had the answer for peace. Maybe yes, maybe no. A more important question now is the demographic reality of the population make-up of "Greater Israel" going forward.</p>zalman commented on 'Trying to repair a legacy fit for late night comics'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef012875a5ba3b970c2009-11-15T23:57:28Z2009-11-15T23:57:28ZzalmanFred -- Do you think that Clinton's point was that Rabin was less willing to compromise than Netanyahu? (I don't.)<p>Fred -- Do you think that Clinton's point was that Rabin was less willing to compromise than Netanyahu?<br />
(I don't.) </p>Simon commented on 'Trying to repair a legacy fit for late night comics'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef012875a5adb2970c2009-11-15T23:38:42Z2009-11-15T23:38:42ZSimonhttp://smontagu.org/blog/So if Rabin categorically rejected all of these negotiating points that subsequent governments have been willing to entertain, then it...<p><i>So if Rabin categorically rejected all of these negotiating points that subsequent governments have been willing to entertain, then it stands to reason that subsequent attempts at peace negotiations should have been more successful, not less so, right? But they weren't.</i></p>
<p>If I may say so, I think you're the one making a fallacious argument here. Maybe just because Rabin was less willing to compromise than his successors, he would have been more successful in bringing Arafat to a point where he would have signed an agreement rather than holding out for more concessions. We'll never know now.</p>Fred commented on 'Trying to repair a legacy fit for late night comics'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef0120a6a2e07e970b2009-11-15T20:50:34Z2009-11-15T20:50:34ZFred"...a comprehensive agreement for peace... Even if so, an agreement is just paper; It doesn't guarantee peace. In the Arab/Israeli...<p><b>"...a comprehensive agreement for peace...</b></p>
<p>Even if so, an agreement is just paper; It doesn't guarantee peace. In the Arab/Israeli dispute, it pretty much is irrelevant to peace. So yeah, we might have had a piece of paper...<br />
</p>Ilana-Davita commented on 'Trying to repair a legacy fit for late night comics'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef0120a6a26bca970b2009-11-15T17:46:26Z2009-11-15T17:46:26ZIlana-Davitahttp://ilanadavita.wordpress.com/Maybe someone should forward this post to Bill.<p>Maybe someone should forward this post to Bill.</p>