Comments on Which Came First - Terrorism or "Occupation"? TypePad2008-05-06T06:21:26ZDavid Bognerhttps://www.treppenwitz.com/tag:typepad.com,2003:https://www.treppenwitz.com/2008/05/which-came-firs/comments/atom.xml/DemoCast commented on 'Which Came First - Terrorism or "Occupation"? 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5522010d988332008-05-13T09:52:48Z2008-05-13T09:52:49ZDemoCasthttp://profile.typekey.com/democast/Israel's 60th Independence was celebrated in Hollywood on Saturday night by an entertainment spectacular, introduced by actor, Kirk Douglas. (Watch...<p>Israel's 60th Independence was celebrated in Hollywood on Saturday night by an entertainment spectacular, introduced by actor, Kirk Douglas. (Watch him speak Hebrew before the dancing girls on Joo-Tube.com)</p>
<p>First to perform was the Keshet Chaim Dance Troupe, who performed a symbolization of the founding of the birth of the Jewish state. They were followed by a number of Israeli pop stars. </p>
<p>As ambassadors of Zionism, the Keshet Chaim Dance Troupe should be ashamed that the occasion of Israel's 60th Independence is being mourned by one of their dancers, Danielle, a Jewish-American, who is taking the initiative to organize a "Nakba Gathering"- to mourn the 'Catastrophe' of the establishment of the State of Israel to the inconvenience of the attacking Arab armies. </p>
<p>Ignorant of Israel's history (and not educated by Keshet Chaim) she has been influenced by her Palestinian girlfriends to absorb the Palestinian narrative against the Jews. </p>
<p>Plagued with guilt, she seeks to beg the Palestinians' forgiveness for her ancestors' establishment of the Jewish sanctuary (in its ancestral homeland as endowed by the Almighty and 2000 years of struggle to return) by organizing a 'Catastrophe Gathering' on Friday, 23rd May at 7:30 to "acknowledge and affirm the narrative of people's voices who have not been justly represented and understood."</p>
<p>Do you feel that this behavior is becoming for a cultural ambassador for Israel? What message do you suppose it conveys about Israel's history and legitimacy to the Arabs, Muslims, and general public?</p>
<p>To get more info (or hopefully to give her more info/education), email Danielle at smad79@aol.com.</p>
<p>If you'd like to inform Keshet Chaim Dancers of your opinion about their dancer's anti-Zionist activism, you can email Genie Benson, Executive Director, at genie@kcdancers.org/.</p>Lioness commented on 'Which Came First - Terrorism or "Occupation"? 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55233e98788342008-05-11T08:43:00Z2008-05-11T08:43:00ZLionesshttp://whichsurprisedher.blogspot.com/I have absolutely given up discussing Middle East politics with the Portuguese it was severely affecting my quality of life....<p>I have absolutely given up discussing Middle East politics with the Portuguese it was severely affecting my quality of life. I made the decision to never again do it after a dinner party in which I was sitting across from a girl wearing a Palestinian scarf - in Portugal it is very easy to determine one's political views from the way people dress, you can do it with 95% certainty, at least - so I was bracing myself for the worst and did you know, the worst came. I think her position could basically be summed up as "The Israelis are murderers, oh the poor Palestinians" so I started addressing her remarks one by one, and upon my saying the Arabs had indeed started the first war the day after the UN officially divided the country she replied "Wars? There wwere no wars! What wars?" So I started enumerating them and she had not heard of any. She hadn't heard of Rabin, she had not heard of Barak's offer in 200, she had not heard of Black September or camps in Jordan and Lebanon, she knew nothing, NOTHING, and yet that didn't stop her from having the absolute belief that the Israelis were "just being mean" and if only they went away it would all be good again. ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! That was it, no more, it took all of my restraint to remain civil - shocker, I know, but I can be very diplomatic especially if I don't want to ruin someone's party by throwing myself across the table and throttling someone. </p>
<p>Fast forward a few years and I'm trapped in the university bus on the way to an abattoir for a mandatory inspection visit so am already feeling cheery. The teacher is sitting across the aisle next to me and somehow the conversation ended up in Israel again, and wouldn't you know it, the Jews are all mad, there must be something wrong with them! I said "You know, that's a rather broad statement, I'm Jewish and actually quite normal" and she says "NO NO! The Jews are clearly all mental, look at what's happening in Israel, there is absolutely no reason for it to be so, how they treat that poor people, no! Thet need to leave." And I thought to myself 1) this is pointless and 2) I need to finish this degree and so I just shut up - not hard to really bcs when the inanity is humungous I am often struck speechless and - really, I know there is a bias in the media, but it is amazing to me how otherwise intelligent people can be this simplistic and actually imbecilic. But the lemming approach makes me fume, GO WHERE, you idiots?? GAHHH!!!</p>
<p>What really, really, REALLY makes my blood boil is the fact that these people aren't even pro-Palestinian, they are simply anti-Israeli, I have yet to see one of them express concern abt the "poor people" still in camps in Arab countries. It seems the Arabs are allowed to do what they want to their own kind, it's only the Israelis - sorry, "the Jews" - that need to throw themselves into the ocean and drown. I really don't see how you can keep doing this day after day, my adrenals gave up on me long ago, I can't cope with it anymore.</p>Gila commented on 'Which Came First - Terrorism or "Occupation"? 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e552186cb788332008-05-09T05:02:37Z2008-05-09T05:02:37ZGilahttp://www.myshrapnel.blogspot.comGood post. Moshe Dayan's speech is interesting.... Very aware of the other side. Hmmm....<p>Good post. </p>
<p>Moshe Dayan's speech is interesting.... Very aware of the other side. </p>
<p>Hmmm....</p>QuietusLeo commented on 'Which Came First - Terrorism or "Occupation"? 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5522cf7fc88342008-05-07T17:56:58Z2008-05-07T17:56:58ZQuietusLeohttp://quietusleo.blogspot.comFor Hebrew readers: Moshe Dayan's speech in Hebrew is copyrighted so I can't copy it. It can be found here...<p>For Hebrew readers:<br />
Moshe Dayan's speech in Hebrew is copyrighted so I can't copy it. It can be found <a href="http://lib.cet.ac.il/Pages/item.asp?item=7702" rel="nofollow"> here </a> .</p>QuietusLeo commented on 'Which Came First - Terrorism or "Occupation"? 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5521554a388332008-05-07T17:44:17Z2008-05-07T17:44:17ZQuietusLeohttp://quietusleo.blogspot.comFirst of all, Hi Mom! Second of all, you are not of advanced age. You are of young spirit. Third,...<p>First of all, Hi Mom! <br />
Second of all, you are <b>not</b> of advanced age. You are of <b>young</b> spirit.<br />
Third, here is a translation of Moshe Dayan's eulogy for Roi Rutenberg. What was uttered 52 years ago is even more relevent today:</p>
<p><br />
Early yesterday morning Roi was murdered. The quiet of the spring morning dazzled him and he did not see those waiting in ambush for him, at the edge of the furrow.</p>
<p>Let us not cast the blame on the murderers today. Why should we declare their burning hatred for us? For eight years they have been sitting in the refugee camps in Gaza, and before their eyes we have been transforming the lands and the villages, where they and their fathers dwelt, into our estate.</p>
<p>It is not among the Arabs in Gaza, but in our own midst that we must seek Roi's blood. How did we shut our eyes and refuse to look squarely at our fate, and see, in all its brutality, the destiny of our generation? Have we forgotten that this group of young people dwelling at Nahal Oz is bearing the heavy gates of Gaza on its shoulders?</p>
<p>Beyond the furrow of the border, a sea of hatred and desire for revenge is swelling, awaiting the day when serenity will dull our path, for the day when we will heed the ambassadors of malevolent hypocrisy who call upon us to lay down our arms.</p>
<p>Roi's blood is crying out to us and only to us from his torn body. Although we have sworn a thousandfold that our blood shall not flow in vain, yesterday again we were tempted, we listened, we believed.</p>
<p>We will make our reckoning with ourselves today; we are a generation that settles the land and without the steel helmet and the cannon's maw, we will not be able to plant a tree and build a home. Let us not be deterred from seeing the loathing that is inflaming and filling the lives of the hundreds of thousands of Arabs who live around us. Let us not avert our eyes lest our arms weaken.</p>
<p>This is the fate of our generation. This is our life's choice - to be prepared and armed, strong and determined, lest the sword be stricken from our fist and our lives cut down.</p>
<p>The young Roi who left Tel Aviv to build his home at the gates of Gaza to be a wall for us was blinded by the light in his heart and he did not see the flash of the sword. The yearning for peace deafened his ears and he did not hear the voice of murder waiting in ambush. The gates of Gaza weighed too heavily on his shoulders and overcame him.<br />
</p>Rivka with a capital A commented on 'Which Came First - Terrorism or "Occupation"? 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e552145e1288332008-05-07T07:45:31Z2008-05-07T07:45:31ZRivka with a capital Ahttp://coffeeandchemo.blogspot.comI thought you might be interested in this: Hatikva World Record On a more personal note: Ofra writes "It is...<p>I thought you might be interested in this:<br />
<a href="http://www.livehatikva.org/hatikvaGuinnessWorldRecord.html" rel="nofollow">Hatikva World Record</a></p>
<p><br />
On a more personal note: <br />
Ofra writes <i>"It is a shame, on this rememberance day, to get into a political argument..."</i><br />
I used to differentiate between "politics" and "Zionism".... Until I lost my first friend to "politics." Then, politics became an integral part of remembrance.</p>
<p>Almost 13 years ago, our good friend, Danny Frei, HY"D, was murdered in his home by an Arab terrorist. Danny's death, which is remembered today, on Yom HaZikaron, was a direct result of inviting and financing terrorists to come into our country and take over our land. </p>
<p>In the "old days", the Israeli government would have founded a new Yishuv, as a deterrant to further attacks. Now, the Israeli government threatens to destroy the small yishuv, Mitzpeh Dani, that has been established in Danny's memory.</p>
<p>Today is a day, set aside, to remember Danny and all the others who were killed in battle and by terrorists. How can we not also remember the <i>events</i> that led to their deaths?</p>Jack commented on 'Which Came First - Terrorism or "Occupation"? 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5522a982e88342008-05-06T22:49:43Z2008-05-06T22:49:44ZJackhttp://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/It is clear that there is an awful lot of work to be done. Internecine warfare does not serve us...<p>It is clear that there is an awful lot of work to be done. Internecine warfare does not serve us well.</p>Aryeh commented on 'Which Came First - Terrorism or "Occupation"? 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55213013f88332008-05-06T21:12:12Z2008-05-06T21:12:12ZAryehI believe it is ok (even noble) for one to desire fairness in all outcomes. I even believe that it...<p>I believe it is ok (even noble) for one to desire fairness in all outcomes. I even believe that it is ok (perhaps the very ideal of nobility) for one to lay one’s life on the line based on an idea that fairness demonstrated will lead to fairness in return. I do not, however, believe that it is ok for one to offer up the lives of others in the remote hope of proving this or any other ideology.<br />
I think the following questions are germane. If Israel retreats to 1967 borders, how will Israel’s situation be improved over the present situation? How will its situation be improved over that which existed in 1967 and led to that war? How will a country that refuses to suffer Jews in its midst coexist meaningfully with a neighbor that is principally Jewish? <br />
</p>nikki commented on 'Which Came First - Terrorism or "Occupation"? 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5522a5b0388342008-05-06T21:11:01Z2008-05-06T21:11:01Znikkii think this list, along with vociferous editorial questioning of palestinian motives, should be published again and again as an...<p>i think this list, along with vociferous editorial questioning of palestinian motives, should be published again and again as an analytical sidebar next to any article anywhere where the "1967 israeli occupation of the west bank and gaza" is given as the reason for current arab terrorism in israel.</p>Ofra commented on 'Which Came First - Terrorism or "Occupation"? 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55212d79a88332008-05-06T20:12:47Z2008-05-06T20:12:47ZOfraIt is a shame, on this rememberance day, to get into a political argument. Politicaly I am secular and left-of-center....<p>It is a shame, on this rememberance day, to get into a political argument. Politicaly I am secular and left-of-center. However, due to my advanced age,:( I have a different prespective then most of you. All of the events listed above occured during my teens and twenties so what is far history for most of you is current events for me and my generation.<br />
I have one correction and one addition to the list of events: In 1956 April 29 it was by the hands of the Fedayeen and not Egypcians that Roi Rotenberg was murdered and his body badly mutilated. I know because Roi was my group leader in the youth movement. He was murdered while on watch duty of kibbutz Nachal Oz fields on a horse back. The horse came back to the kibbutz without Roi and that's when the search after him started. I was present at his funeral where Moshe Dayan gave a most eloquent eulogy and this particular event in 1956, which was unusualy bloody year for us, that precipitated the Sinai campaign.<br />
There is one event that I know off missing from the list of 1966. A flatbed pulled by a tractor carying workers to the fields of kibbutz Massada in the jordan vally was blown up by a mine set up by the Syrians. Three people died there, one of them the father of a friend of mine.<br />
I had a large family in Massada and they lived under constant shelling by the Syrians from the Golan heights for years. My cousins practicaly lived in underground bunkers for all this time. Do we want to give the Syrians back the oportunity to do it again?? I think not!!!<br />
I can tell you much more about life back then but beeing a first timer here I will not push my fortune. <br />
Sorry for any and all spelling errors. And BTW, I am the Sandman's mom</p>zahava commented on 'Which Came First - Terrorism or "Occupation"? 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e552118b6488332008-05-06T13:04:20Z2008-05-06T13:04:20Zzahava"Nowadays, you ask why the heck should I go to reserves to go watch over a kindergarten of settler kids,...<p><i>"Nowadays, you ask why the heck should I go to reserves to go watch over a kindergarten of settler kids, whise parents are, at best, condescending towards me, and at worst downright hostile."</i></p>
<p>How you could read this post -- a post which documents terrorism and violence against civilians <b>pre-occupation!</b> -- on the eve of Yom HaZikaron -- at a time when it would be suitable to look for paths to unify rather than further divide.... and the <b>only/first</b> thing that you can think to add to the "discussion" is <b>THIS</b> speaks volumes about you.</p>
<p>Miluim, like regular army service, <b>should</b> have nothing to do with politics. It is the of defense of the country. Just how effective do you think an army can be if we grant each individual soldier the opportunity to <i>decide</i> which of us he/she is willing to defend?!</p>
<p>For the record, a <b>patriot</b> doesn't attack his <b>countryman</b> -- he reserves attacks for his enemy. Diplomacy may be a useful tool between nations -- it is, however, essential between dissenting countrymen of a beleaguered nation such as our own. </p>treppenwitz commented on 'Which Came First - Terrorism or "Occupation"? 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55211788e88332008-05-06T12:36:10Z2008-05-06T12:36:10Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.comAsher... If you bother to read my comment you will see I never accused the left of not being patriotic....<p>Asher... If you bother to read my comment you will see I never accused the left of not being patriotic. I also never mentioned Kibbutzniks in reference to their sacrifices or in any context whatsoever. It is exhausting to have a discussion with someone who refuses to listen to what is being said. My point is that your problem is with the settlements over the green line, not the settlers. Yet in almost every comment you have ever left here on my blog you attack the settlers. They have done what their country asked of them. As to your idea that moving out of the settlements will make us one people, have you and your brothers and sisters on the left embraced the Gaza evacuees now that they are 'back in the fold'? Have you protested the government's refusal to provide the promised compensation? Have you written letters and made a fuss that most of them are still unemployed and living in temporary housing years after the disengagement took place? Is this the kind of unity you foresee when and if we evacuate Judea and Samaria? If so, I would rather fight you than join you. </p>
<p>shira0607... Well said.</p>asher commented on 'Which Came First - Terrorism or "Occupation"? 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55228d35f88342008-05-06T12:26:01Z2008-05-06T12:26:01Zasherno, Shira, it won't bring peace, but it'll mean that we'll be one people united, instaed of a house divided....<p>no, Shira, it won't bring peace, but it'll mean that we'll be one people united, instaed of a house divided. (By the way, the army should have stayed in the Gaza area, outside the cities, but maintaining a prescence, after the dismantling of the civilian settlements. Pity the government didn' ask me beforehand...)<br />
Remember, I'm concerned about US (the citizens, particularly the Jews of Israel), not "them" (ie the Arabs of Judea and Samaria)</p>shira0607 commented on 'Which Came First - Terrorism or "Occupation"? 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55228cf0488342008-05-06T12:16:00Z2008-05-06T12:16:00Zshira0607http://shirabatsarah.blogspot.comI have a question for asher. Hamas has recently been airing children's programs in which it is promised the Palestinians...<p>I have a question for asher. Hamas has recently been airing children's programs in which it is promised the Palestinians will retake Tel Aviv. In other words, Hamas and many other Palestinian terror groups consider Tel Aviv to be "occupied" or another way of looking at it, one of the largest "settlements".</p>
<p>The question is: If your enemy sees all of Israel as "occupied" and all of its citizens, from infants to the elderly, as legitimate targets for terrorism, why do you think dismantling any of the so-called "settlements" will bring peace? Did disengaging from Gaza bring peace to the citizens of Sderot, Ashdod, Nahal Oz, or Ashkelon?</p>
<p>Did leaving Lebanon bring peace from the rockets of Hezbollah? </p>asher commented on 'Which Came First - Terrorism or "Occupation"? 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e552110ebd88332008-05-06T09:24:13Z2008-05-06T09:24:13ZasherDear David: I am not going to let you take exclusivity on patriotism. "government approval and encouragement" could also be...<p>Dear David:<br />
I am not going to let you take exclusivity on patriotism. </p>
<p>"government approval and encouragement" could also be read as "government giving in to emotional blackmail".<br />
</p>
<p>Being "right=wing" doesn't make you any more or less patriotic than me, and if I see that my (our) country is going downhill, it's my duty AS A PATRIOT to shout out loud.<br />
It's all very well to say let's hold hands and sing together, but who chooses the words and the tune?<br />
I can just as easy say "you divided us" that's kindergarten style.</p>
<p>We're never going to see eye-to-eye on this, that's clear.</p>
<p>For memorial day, go to a kibbutz, any kibbutz and see how many IDF headstones there are, and what the size of the kibbutz is, then go and say thank-you.</p>
<p>On a tangent, and EMPHASIZING THE DIFFERENCE, Jews who were decorated by Petain after the battle of Verdun were sent off to their deaths by Petain's Vichy regime, and 12000 (twelve thousand) German Jews /Jewish Germans were so patriotic that they got themselves killed for their Vaterland in World War One, so maybe this whole definition of patriotism needs looking at EMPHASIZING THE DIFFERENCE,<br />
</p>Rami commented on 'Which Came First - Terrorism or "Occupation"? 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e552287d1f88342008-05-06T09:06:04Z2008-05-06T09:06:04ZRamiHostile Islamic factions would not ‘look’ good without a reason to ‘fight failure/defeat’, so the “you started it” blame game...<p>Hostile Islamic factions would not ‘look’ good without a reason to ‘fight failure/defeat’, so the “you started it” blame game is a good basis for an argument with any myopic member of the ‘brotherhood’. </p>
<p>For 60 years history has shown that no wealthy ‘brother’, religious conviction in the Persian Gulf, Iran, Syria or any other part of the world can undermine the right to self-determination for Israelis, that’s a good enough start for the future. <br />
</p>treppenwitz commented on 'Which Came First - Terrorism or "Occupation"? 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55228773d88342008-05-06T08:44:54Z2008-05-06T09:11:44Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.comAlmost Jerusalem... Just to be clear, they were not my words but rather those of the Government web site. Asher......<p>Almost Jerusalem... Just to be clear, they were not my words but rather those of the Government web site.</p>
<p>Asher... This split into two kingdoms, as you describe it, is a matter of perception. The idea of 'us and them' could not come into being unless part of the country tried valiantly to divorce the other. It is the Israeli left that has divorced those who (with government approval and encouragement) went to live in Judea Samaria and Gaza. It isn't fair to throw up your hands and say 'our kingdom is divided' without taking responsibility for who divided it. On one side are patriotic, Zionist Jews who see Israel as one nation/'Am Ehad'. On the other side stands the Israeli left with arms folded stating unambiguously that 'those people' over there are not part of us and are the root of all our problems. Today's post was about refuting that flawed argument. If the Arabs eventually succeed in conquering us because we are divided, the blame for that division will not be borne by the right. IN anticipation of your response, which is likely to be something like, <em>"Yes, but the settlers are the problem. We can't in good conscience be occupiers over another people and expect them to make peace with us."</em>... to which I would say that your issue should not be with the settlers but rather with the settlement enterprise. For some reason the Israeli left sees no problem with transferring their disapproval of the settlement enterprise, which is a governmental initiative (funded, approved and encouraged for decades) onto the settlers themselves who are hard-working, patriotic Israelis. This transference has been rather easy since many on the left are secular and many of the settlers are religious so a natural suspicion/dislike was there all along.</p>asher commented on 'Which Came First - Terrorism or "Occupation"? 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55210f17a88332008-05-06T07:56:39Z2008-05-06T07:56:39ZasherI can't argue with the facts listed above, and have no desire to do so. I just wish to remind...<p>I can't argue with the facts listed above, and have no desire to do so. I just wish to remind everyone that between 48 and 67 the state of Israel had not split into the two kingdoms.<br />
When it was "us" against "them", then we were all one "us", life was simple, you went to the army, did reserves and that was all she wrote.<br />
Nowadays, you ask why the heck should I go to reserves to go watch over a kindergarten of settler kids, whise parents are, at best, condescending towards me, and at worst downright hostile.</p>
<p>It isn't about the arabs, it's about us.</p>Almost Jerusalem commented on 'Which Came First - Terrorism or "Occupation"? 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55210ef5388332008-05-06T07:47:47Z2008-05-06T07:47:47ZAlmost JerusalemActually, from the Arab point of view, it was indeed "occupation" that begat terrorism, but the "occupation" they are referring...<p>Actually, from the Arab point of view, it was indeed "occupation" that begat terrorism, but the "occupation" they are referring to (and fighting against) is the entire enterprise of Jews returning to Zion! That is why they consistently deny any historical claim of the Jews to any part of Eretz Yisrael. In their eyes, Tel Aviv, Haifa, and Be'er Sheva are as much "occupied Palestine" as Efrat, Ariel, or Kfar Darom, and the Western Wall is merely the hitching post for M's horse! In your own words "this deplorable violence can be traced back to the beginning of the renewed Jewish settlement of the Land of Israel over a century ago."</p>
<p>This history does lend credence to the idea that any territorial concession by Israel would be met only with more violence, and not the peace we all long for.</p>