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Thursday, November 15, 2007
Is it just me?
I know I was being extra snarky when I wrote the post entitled 'Peace... when?' last week. But after hearing of the Palestinian's reluctance to recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish State, I just couldn't let such an asinine justification as "There is no country in the world where religious and national identities are intertwined" (by Saeb Erakat) pass without comment.
Obviously there are many countries that openly describe themselves as 'The Islamic replublic of...", not to mention the Vatican wich one would be hard pressed to describe as not having nationality and religion intertwined.
So I'm wondering why everybody in the media let such a bald-faced lie pass without challenge. It all comes back to the old 'Zionism is racism' libel that should have been put to rest long ago. However, it never occurred to me that this issue of Israel's very right of self-determination might really be the sticking point... the line in the sand, so to speak... for the Palestinians.
In preparing for the Annapolis Conference our leaders are sitting up nights trying to decide whether to give away half of our territory... or all of it (except for Tel Aviv and its suburbs, of course). Yet in the Palestinian camp, the insurmountable issue that seems to have stuck in their craw is Israel's very right to self determination!
I have often joked that the trend in Arab-Israeli negotiations is that Israel is expected to bring large tracts of land to the negotiating table in order to sue for peace... and the Arabs are expected to bring a pen. But this time around I'm struggling to find the joke.
How sad is it that after all these years we still haven't settled the most basic issue of Israel's right to self-determination... yet Palestinian self-determination is not only a given, but their right to define themselves any way they like is considered sacrosanct.
Just to review:
1. The Palestinians
wantdemand their own state... but they want all of the 'Palestinian refugees' to have the right to retrn to Israel... not the Palestinian state. Isn't the very raison d'etre of a Palestinian State (and the Paletinian self-determination movement) to provide people who self-identify as ethnically, politically or culturally 'Palestinian' with a place they can call their own???2. The Palestinians claim the right to self rule and bridle at any whiff of outside interference in their internal affairs... yet they demand that Israel be treated like some bankrupt company languishing in receivership that must be administered by an outside fiduciary trustee (i.e. the UN or the EU).
3. The Palestinians are arguably the least transparent legal/political/financial entity on the planet, yet they dismiss as cumbersome and insulting any request from those who have been pouring unprecedented amounts of foreign aid into their
Swiss bank accountscoffers (more per capita than even the Marshall Plan provided to Europe after WWII) for even the most basic accounting of where the money has gone.4. The Palestinians have no single centralized authority to govern political, military, economic, infrastructure, medical, intelligence or security issues. In fact there are as many as seven or eight entities claiming control of some of these 'departments'... and nobody at all minding the store in others. But despite this novel 'decentralized' approach to government, they expect Israel to enter into binding negotiations with them even as they engage in open civil war amongst themselves... without a clue as to who might emerge the winner or how the victor might be disposed towards honoring exisitng agreements with Israel.
5. Normally a people yearning for nationhood have some basic idea of what kind of government they want, how the economy will be arranged, how basic infrastructure (electricity, sewage, water, roads, transportation, etc.) will be provided for, how the citizenry will receive medical care and education... and perhaps most important, how it will relate to its neighbors and the rest of the world. The Palestinians have done about as much thinking on these subjects as one can comfortably fit on a cocktail napkin. Yet they have several full-fledged chapters of their charter that, to this day, still call for the destruction of the Zionist entity . Clearly they have given some thought to that part of the plan.
6. Even as the Palestinians bring claims to the UN and other interested parties of 'Israeli atrocities and genocide' they continue to bombard Israel cities with rockets, stab Israeli citizens in the street, throw Molotov cocktails and rocks at civilian traffic and attempt to smuggle explosives to terrorist cells for use against Israeli civilian targets. Yet we still provide them with fuel, electricity, water and other 'humanitarian' services.
Somebody please explain to me again why we are talking to the Palestinians about anything right now (except possibly terms of surrender)?
[UPDATE: An excellent op-ed from the Jerusalem Post on the whole issue of the 'Recognition Sham']
Posted by David Bogner on November 15, 2007 | Permalink
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» What He Said from Israellycool
I normally prefer to articulate my own views myself - except when someone else articulates them better than I could.
David Bogner: Is it Just Me?
How sad is it that after all these years we still havent settled the most basic issue of IsraelR... [Read More]
Tracked on Nov 15, 2007 2:00:56 PM
» Is it just me? from Shimshon 9
I found this excellent post on Treppenwitz. Here a small excerpt:
How sad is it that after all these years we still havent settled the most basic issue of Israels right to self-determination yet Palestinian self-determination is n... [Read More]
Tracked on Nov 17, 2007 12:53:04 PM
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Because the alternative is to admit that the only rational course of action is total war - that the Arab grievance has nothing to do with land or anything on which compromise is possible.
Posted by: Russell | Nov 15, 2007 1:09:12 PM
One thing: I think your comparison to the Marshall Plan is unfair. I'm sure that in real dollars (i.e. inflation adjusted), there would still be a significant difference. $13 billion in the late 1940s is a huge amount of money.
Otherwise, spot on, unfortunately.
Ender
Posted by: matlabfreak | Nov 15, 2007 2:38:58 PM
Russell... Which is what I have been saying right along. I was watching the History Channel last night, and as much as the footage of beautiful European cities in ruins turned my stomach, I know in my heart that WWII would never have ended had Germany not been bombed into complete submission... civilians be damned.
matlabfreak... Rather than try to paraphrase it I will quote my source:
"The Marshall Plan distributed $60 billion (at today’s prices), which worked out to $272 per European in the main participating countries. By contrast, by the end of last year, according to the World Bank, the Palestinians had received $4 billion since Oslo, which translates into $1,330 per Palestinian. In other words, the Palestinians have already gotten more than four times as much as the Europeans got from the Marshall Plan. Or if done on an annual basis, the Palestinians have gotten $161 per person per year compared to $68 per person annually under the four-year Marshall Plan, meaning the Palestinians have gotten more than twice as much aid for twice as long as Europe got under the Marshall Plan."
My point is even more apt when one consideres that the result of the Marshall plan was a rebuilt, self-sufficient Europe. The result of all that aide to the Palestinians is a hadful of arch-terrorists with multi-million dollar Swiss Bank accounts and the rest of the Palis living in squalor.
Posted by: treppenwitz | Nov 15, 2007 2:45:54 PM
Because our Leftwing secular elite (and mostly Ashkenazi) regime with its stranglehold on the government hasn't recovered from centuries of acting like Court Jews and seeking safety by kissing European tushes.....placating Europe and the US is going to get us all killed, because in the end, all the EU and US care about is ME stability and a lower price of oil...and if that means tossing Israel to the Arabs, then that will happen. The State Dept has been advocating this since 1947, and now Saudi-funded academia is taking up the delegitimization of Israel with glee. Saudi money and Left-wing fascism--a deadly combination for Israel's future.
Posted by: aliyah06 | Nov 15, 2007 3:01:17 PM
Ah, but that's not a really fair comparison. For one, your source totalled ALL aid to the Palestinians (at least your quote suggests that), not just from a US source. Granted, the Marshall Plan was the bulk of the European reconstruction money, but significant help came from other funds as well. I don't know how much it is, though, so I'll leave that alone.
Second, the 'purchasing power parity' of $60 billion dollars in postwar Europe may have been higher than the same in the territories - no matter how crappy the territories are, things are still roughly pegged to Israeli prices (albeit still lower). I'm not sure about this comparison, though, as the issues are likely very complex, and calculating PPP for the past is not easy.
Third-and most significantly- the Marshall Plan was for a very specific purpose, and a very specific type of aid. It could only be used to by various types of goods from the US - starting with food and energy supplies, building up to raw materials and some basic manufactured stuff for reconstruction. It didn't include military development/training (a large component of the US aid, at least), manpower costs (where the bulk of the rest of the US/EU money goes), etc. Whether or not the US and EU should be doing this for the Palestinians is a separate issue; the important point is that the two plans are not analogous, and for the type of aid given the Marshall Plan was far more generous. Otherwise, we could say the same about US military aid to Israel - which is far more than a mere $4 billion over a decade.
Lastly, your sources is wrong, at least for current dollars. $13 billion in 1947-1951 dollars is now about $110 billion in 2007 dollars. (I'd have to integrate over the years and relative amounts to get the exact conversion.) That means that aid per capita per year for the Palestinians and the Europeans is roughly the same.
I'm just saying that your post was generally quite good, but including a false comparison like the one you did takes away from its impact. People will either walk away believing something incorrect (especially as your wording was far more suggestive than the reality of your quoted source), or will walk away discounting the rest of your argument because of my objections.
*shrugs* My .02. Good post regardless.
Posted by: matlabfreak | Nov 15, 2007 3:10:01 PM
You articulated this better than I ever could. Thanks for yet another thoughtful and incisive post.
Had the Balfour Plan been followed, the "Palestinians" would have their state today, in the area now known as Jordan. And I'm sure they would still be trying to murder Jews.
Prior to the immigration of European Jews beginning in the late 1800's, "Palestine" was desolate, with almost no indigenous inhabitants. When the Jews started to make the desert bloom, Arabs began migrating to the area. If there were a right of return established for "Palestinians," and it were restricted to those who could show a family presence predating the First Aliyah, I'm sure Israel could accommodate the entire lot. All twenty of them.
Posted by: Elisson | Nov 15, 2007 5:41:17 PM
It saddens me to say this, but I think that without a major war there is going to be an ongoing problem with the Palestinians. The problem is that the sort of war that is needed (one state versus another) is not something that is in existence.
Without a fundamental change in the Pal philosophy we're going to be stuck in this situation.
Posted by: Jack | Nov 15, 2007 6:10:23 PM
Once again, Bravo! Kol HaKavod David for saying clearly and more succinctly than anyone else I've been able to find. And certainly better than I...I'll just stick with my old standby, "What he said"
Posted by: Jesse | Nov 15, 2007 6:11:39 PM
Why are we even talking to the Palis now? Here's a reason - yet another lame-duck President of the US looking for a "legacy". Remember eight years ago, when Clinton leaned on Barak to give away the store (thank G-d the Palis turned it down)? Remember the final years of the Reagan presidency, when ol' Ron became the first President to call for a Palestinian entity? Every US President wants history to remember him (or her - shudder - ) as the Prez who made peace in the Middle East - and at the end of the road, they get desparate. Maybe we American Jews should just vote down every incumbent President looking for a second term...
Posted by: psachya | Nov 15, 2007 8:36:02 PM
Wanna know why 'the Arabs' won't accept the existence of the Jewish State of Israel? Just ask them how they came into possession of ALL of North Africa and most of Central Asia (not to mention the 'Levant'). It wasn't through negotiation. The Arabs have their own version of Manifest Destiny, and as far as they are concerned, there's absolutely no room for the Jewish State. Don't bother to talk to them, and forget about their accusations; those are just their self-descriptions reflected at their delegated enemy. If there's any population in the world that has managed to acculturate the narcissistic personality disorder, it's the Arabs, and they've had the best teacher/role model in existence - Britain!
Posted by: Schvach | Nov 16, 2007 12:39:07 AM
I'm in complete agreement with Russell... but unfortunately, the geopolitical situation in the world as a whole being what it is, I don't see any way out of the current situation.
1. Either Israel does engage in total war... and becomes a pariah state (we all know how that would end), because of hypocritical stands on international law in the UN, or
2. Things continue going as they are now, in which case I can only foresee the darkest of scenarios.
Unless things change in Europe and U.S., the consequences of a total war for Israel will be hardly any better than the consequences of continuing down the same horrible road as now.
Posted by: Irina | Nov 16, 2007 12:55:25 AM
So I'm wondering why everybody in the media let such a bald-faced lie pass without challenge.
Simple, dude. Plain old racism. No one pays any attention to Palestinian statements (except for their supporters). The rest of us (and I'm temporarily speaking not as a Judaically inclined person but as an average moderately well-educated and sort of liberal Gentile) do not give a crap what they say. We're used to Arab rhetoric and imagination. We ignore it. They and their statements are immaterial in our world. We're know their hyperbole and their disconnect from reality. So in one ear and out the other. Meh, he said what?
It's the same reason why the world gets their knickers in a twist whenever an Israeli politician does something egregious, but never says anything at all about the excesses of the Arab states and their politicos.
We expect nothing better from them.
Jews and Israelis, on the other hand, we expect much from. It's what happens when you're a paradigm among nations. The example of something.
It's the same situation as what goes on as regards prisoners in Cuba. The world screams bloody murder about Guantanamo - and largely ignores the fact that Fidel has so many more prisoners on the same island, in much worse conditions and suffering much worse treatment. No one expects any thing else from him.
Lets just say that we hold Caesar's wife to a much higher standard. In the case of other folks we're just glad when they stop dragging their knuckles in the dirt and discover bathing. Shoot, we're just bowled over when they actually walk and talk like us. We've barely gotten over the stage where we poked them just to make sure those strange beasts were real.
Forgive the comparison with South Africa, but the situation is the same. We were furious at South Africa because they were part of us. We ignored (and largely still ignore) the rest of Africa, because they were not us but "them".
Israel is "us". The Palliwallies will always be "them".
------------------
Note: the above statement only holds for one segment of the Western world's population, of course. No need to remind me of the other segment, those folks are unfortunately abundantly represented in the Bay Area. And there are too many of them.
Even among double standards there are double standards.
Posted by: Back of the Hill | Nov 16, 2007 12:56:09 AM
The Palestinians have no single centralized authority to govern political, military, economic, infrastructure, medical, intelligence or security issues.
An observation I’ve made in the last couple of months/years, Suicide Bombings are sanctioned from a high authority, most likely a head of state, so to be able to pursue peace you have to reason with these leaders, some of whom take a very one-sided approach when dealing with issues. Something close to what we have in Somalia with the war lords.
Posted by: Rami | Nov 16, 2007 10:08:42 AM
aliyah06... Clearly you've given this some thought. :-)
matlabfreak... I'm not going to argue what ends up being semantics with you. Let's just look at Europe in the wake of the Marshall Plan... and the PA controlled areas in the wake of their aide package(s). Is there ANYTHING that Palis have to show for all that financial assistance except for a few filthy rich leaders?
Elisson... The whole 'a land without people for a people without a land' is not exactly as true as we all would like to think. There were Arabs living here, albeit most were tenant farmers working for absentee landlords living in Beirut, Damascus and various points of the Ottoman Empire. But there were also some Jews living here. Most of the immigration on both sides occurred in parallel.
Jack ... I think you have a workable solution there. Not. :-)
Jesse... Be careful how freely you use that phrase with what I write. I am as frequently full of sh*t as I am correct. :-)
Irina... Better a pariah state than a distant memory.
Back of the Hill... So you are suggesting what, exactly? :-)
Rami... As I said to Back of the Hill: And your suggestion is...? :-)
Posted by: treppenwitz | Nov 18, 2007 10:50:21 AM
That's fair David. I think the situations aren't really comparable, but I will agree that the aid to the Palestinians (with the exception of UNRWA food) has really done nothing good - it's been squandered or embezzled. Perhaps it would be best to withhold the aid until there is a permanent peace settlement; then the aid might actually be used for its intended purpose, reconstruction.
Posted by: matlabfreak | Nov 18, 2007 6:57:55 PM
Have you read this excellent article on the subject: http://www.forward.com/articles/12008/
I recommend it.
Let me quote from it:
When the Palestinians speak of a “two-state” solution, what is it that they have in mind? The answer seems clear. On the one hand, there will be a State of Palestine that will be inhabited entirely by Palestinian Arabs, since the Jewish settlers now living within its future boundaries will be required to evacuate their settlements. At no point has the Palestinian Authority been willing to consider allowing these settlers to remain as residents of Palestine, and at no point has the government of Israel broached such a possibility either. Palestine, it is agreed by both parties, will be one state for one people: the Palestinians.
And yet, in Israel, even if (as all Israeli governments have insisted) no Palestinian refugees will be allowed to return, there will continue to live two peoples: a Jewish majority and an Arab minority. Will Israel be one state composed of two peoples but for only one of them — that is, a Jewish state for the Jewish people in which Arabs will be citizens with equal rights as individuals but without a collective or national status equal to that of the Jews? Or will it rather be a state in which the Jewish people have no special status?
The former is the Israeli negotiating position: Hence, “two states for two peoples” — one for Arabs and one for Jews. The latter is the Palestinian position: Hence, “two states” — one for Palestinians and one for Palestinians and Jews. This explains why, too, Palestinian negotiators, while ready to recognize the State of Israel in a peace agreement, have refused to recognize it “as a Jewish state.” To their minds, Israel must be a bi-national state, shared by Jews and Arabs alike — or, to use the current buzz phrase of Israel’s Arab political leaders, not a “Jewish state” but a “state of all its citizens.”
....
And if it is not run this way? What if, for instance, the State of Israel refuses to abolish its Law of Return, which favors Jewish immigrants over non-Jewish ones, or does not approve of the establishment of Arab-language universities that can grant the same degrees as Hebrew-language universities, or declines to recognize Muslim holidays as, in the manner Jewish holidays, national days of rest? If Israel is not defined as a Jewish state in an Israeli-Palestinian peace treaty, then in the future, policies of this sort can be interpreted as violations of such a treaty and even as pretexts for abrogating it. The question of Israel’s Jewishness would thus be internationalized; no longer would it be a strictly internal Israeli affair, but rather part of Israel’s relations with its Palestinian neighbor and with the entire Arab and Muslim world. For those who wish Israel to remain a Jewish state, this would clearly be a dangerous situation.
Regards,
Inna
Posted by: Inna | Nov 19, 2007 10:35:38 AM
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