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Friday, November 16, 2007
A glimpse of life in the shop window
One of the risks of expressing political opinions in as public a forum as this is that I often get 'interesting' (if not alarming) responses.
However, no email I have ever received demonstrates the disconnect between the Arab/Muslim mindset and the rest of us (and yes, the other way around)as clearly as the following email exchange that took place during the 2006 War in Lebanon:
hi,
and lots of peaceful and happy wishes for yourself and your family.
in your blogpost about "A difficult lesson", you tried to takes sides of Israel and suggested the continous bloodshed to go on forever until one party gives up. brother, i am not as wise as you are but still i believe fight between two men and between two countries or between two religions, they are all different. you can't compare such a "personal" fight to a "national" or "religious" fight, that will be absurd and too childish to do that. i hope you study about Islam more and try to befriend a Muslim and ask him/her all the questions you got in your head before hating Islam or Muslims that much as is evidenced in your blog.
i wish i was near you and could do all i can to guide you towards a good way instead of you becoming voice of the war machine murdering kids/women/old in the name of "ending" war.
instead of helping the bombs, try to help humans who are suffering, not just Muslims but Jews civilians too. try to read more about Islam and why does it ORDER its followers to wage a holy war against anything evil?
hope you got some idea. it is a personal email request to you and i hope instead of getting any "stupid" or the usual racial response, i would get a response from a wise and thinking person who definitely got brains to think before acting.
take care
Ali
I was tempted to simply hit delete and move on with my life, but after rereading his email a few times I decided to engage 'Ali' (not his real name) in order to find out how sincere and intellectually honest he was willing to be on so touchy a subject.
Hi Ali,
I have studied Islam extensively and have come to the conclusion that Islam cannot coexist peacefully with any other religion or culture. The only way Islam tolerates anyone else is in Dhimmi status... and then only barely.
There are obviously peace-loving Muslims who do not wish for Jihad and martyrdom and constant war against 'the infidel'. But they are not the ones calling the shots and they are certainly not ever going to be in a position to influence the Arab/Muslim governments or terrorist organizations.
You tell me to "stop helping the bombs and start helping the suffering people". I am. I am trying to stop the bombs that are causing the ongoing suffering of my people.
If you can dispute the truth of the following statement I will continue to speak with you as long as you wish. If not... have a nice life. Here it is:
"If the Arabs were to put down their weapons tomorrow, there would be immediate peace. If Israel were to put down her weapons tomorrow, there would be an immediate holocaust."
The complete destruction of Israel and the death of all the Jews is the stated goal of our current enemies in Iran, Syria, Lebanon and the PA. It is clearly written in the charter of the people you say I should trust and embrace.
You sit there and tell me about how I need to make peace with my neighbors even as they continue to rain rockets down on my country's civilian population, and send their children with bombs to blow me up.
I think not.
David
I figured that would be the end of 'Ali' and his 'peaceful' overtures and his attempt to "guide [me] towards a good way". I was wrong.
Dear David,
you are definitely a likely recruit of IDF, US Army or others who are currently killing nobody but kids, women. unfortunately, if you were successful in killing Muslim fighters, i would love to commend your bravery. But you are ending up killing innocents and that is why you are being hated so much all around the world that COMPELS every person, government, etc to write that kind of "charter" of destruction of israel from the face of the earth. just look at the past 50 years destruction and try to compare it with the history, just this tiny state of "israel" comes into being and the whole world becomes unsafe for peace lovers.
yes, Islam clearly asks for dominance, but not for the price of innocent blood. it asks you to fight evil, not kids/women. and as a representative of good, islam wants to take the whole world as it should. i strongly condemn the Hizbollah rockets on israeli civilians and the suicide bombers in israeli public places. i simply love soldiers who fight only to soldiers by caring about families, kids, women, elderly. that is what Islamic war "JIHAD" teaches its soldiers, what kind of war is your religion teaching you? that is a coward act to kill those un-armed people.
briefly, if dog barks at us humans, do we have to become a dog in return and leave our superior being a human dignity? you are a wise man and i invite you to think before trying to spread such a hatred. that is simply killing you from inside and you know that but your brainwashing around jewish religion and media stops you from considering the consequences. i really feel sorrow for young jewish who will be or are being murdered in such a young age by blindly following such a bad strategy of killing innocents and inviting rage of not just 1 billion muslims but the whole world.
i am talking to you as i talked to my brother who commit a crime last year and i was trying to teach him. i hope i am not hurting you and i hope and pray that you and your family be safe.
take care,
Ali
There was something decidedly un-brotherly about Ali's unsubstantiated allegations so I decided to put an end to what had been a bad job from the start.
Ali
I don't know a nicer way to say this so I'll just say it: I am not your brother and I do not wish to continue this 'discussion'.I asked you to respond honestly to a simple statement and you refused. Instead you ignore the fact that Hezbollah (as well as the Palestinians) deliberately places their military infrastructure in civilian areas and use civilians as human shields.
How would you like to be in one of those villages being used (against your will ) as a shield for these brave Muslim warriors of yours.
Please don't bother responding. You are clearly not looking for dialog. You are simply trying to wear me out.David
That should have been the end of it, but sadly...
Dear David,
none of your "kid" style evasions can make me angry, rest assured. however, i wish you die quickly in hands of any Muslim fighter instead of a long painful death and believe me it would be a favor to "brainwashed" person like yourself. i wish i could abuse you in return but my being elderly than you and being a Muslim stops me from disgracing you as you tried to disgrace me. i will just wish you could see light and come out of darkness. nothing more.
a well-wisher (Ali)
'Ali' seems to have a teensy-weensy problem with boundaries. Being an apologist for global Jihad is one thing... but actually wishing that I "die quickly in hands of any Muslim fighter instead of a long painful death" crosses a little red line of mine. So I decided to cross one myself.
Dear Ali,
I have forwarded a copy of this entire thread to your company's VP of Human Resources to demonstrate that not only have you initiated an unsolicited correspndence with me via your company's computer system (on company time), but despite my polite request that you not continue to contact me you have sent me an harassing and threatening email. I'm sure he will be quite interested to see your novel religious/political ideas in print.
David
I had really hoped that would be the end of 'Ali' and his kind wishes for my speedy demise... but within twenty minutes the following popped up in my inbox:
Hi,
I did not harrasse you, unfortunately. Anyways, instead of sending such a childish emails to my company or anyone, why don't you send nukes? my God, you totally mis-understood me. I will be probably the FIRST amongst Muslims to save your or your family's lives as we dont' believe in such childish things.
Sorry, it is all mis-understanding and I take back all words that might have caused you disturbance. They were all meant to be as a "communique" between human beings, not between animals.
Anyways, sorry again and I apologize and I am sure you got enough human dignity to accept my apology. I assure you that I will never ever reach out to any Jewish person in order to pacify things around him.
Please be safe and take care of your family, I pray you see the light and come out of the darkness,
Ali
Admittedly I made a few crucial errors (that largest was responding in the first place), but I'm curious how some of you would have handled this kind of thing.
Postscript: 'Whether by accident or design, Ali invitd me to be his friend on facebook last week. I clicked 'ignore'.
Posted by David Bogner on November 16, 2007 | Permalink
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Its a very intricate mindset I tell you, especially from the ill-tempered ones. "The fighting, which one fighter said was sparked by a dispute over where to park an armored car, left at least six people dead and 10 wounded." This is against one another... Imagine a fight with someone else, say for land.
Posted by: Rami | Nov 16, 2007 4:54:40 PM
David, 'Delete' is a very useful key. In the days of Usenet and the like - yes, there was a world before WWW - I went down the route you detailed in your posting a few times. Guess what? A waste of key strokes and valuable coffee drinking time. The mail to Ali's employer, now THAT was a good move!!
Posted by: Superpharm | Nov 16, 2007 4:59:34 PM
Naaaah. You should have continued dialoging with him in the hopes of bringin him the light. It was not like he was about to blow you up(not that he was against that occuring). so keep talking to him and maybe you would have convinced him to change his views.One less person who wants you dead is not to be scoffed at. And you should have done a better job of fisking his letters. Quote his quotes back to him and explain why you think he is wrong. and then ask him again to respond to that very key comment about laying down weapons. Would have been interesting to see how it would have played out.
Posted by: brad | Nov 16, 2007 5:10:07 PM
I think you did the right thing by turning him in. It was clear that he wasn't listening to you or the points you raised, just spewing the same old anti-Israeli propaganda. There was no dialog. Maybe now he feels a little less secure in his "anonymity".
Posted by: psychotoddler | Nov 16, 2007 5:21:06 PM
I wouldn't have bothered to respond...I grew tired long ago of trying to fight every battle that came my way. I learned the hard way to pick my battles...
Shabbat Shalom to the entire family!!
Posted by: tnspr569 | Nov 16, 2007 5:22:26 PM
Someone recently quoted me an old adage: "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It only wastes your time, and it only annoys the pig." Now, who told me that?....Oh, right! It was you! ;-)
Posted by: psachya | Nov 16, 2007 6:41:03 PM
Did anyone at Ali's employer ever responded to your e-mail? I am just curious to know if they did anything about it.
Posted by: David S | Nov 16, 2007 7:48:01 PM
I hit delete when I see stuff like that.
I cannot have a conversation about complicated issues with someone who is not fluent in a language I speak, does not have the basic information to deal with what I say, and is so entrenched in their own version of events that they are in-able to listen.
I spend enough time already fighting with fellow Dutch-speakers over Israel-related issues that I have no patience left to deal with someone like Ali, whose abuse of the English language leads me to believe that he thinks in Malay/Indonesian in any case.
[I spent my entire time in Malaysia thinking ill-thoughts about the alleged natives, by the way.]
Posted by: Back of the Hill | Nov 16, 2007 11:56:18 PM
The Murder of Jewish Toddlers!
What HEZBOLLAH is “ALL ABOUT!”
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/7487
On July 12, 2006 Lebanese Hezbollah militants crossed the border with Israel in an operation dubbed "Operation Truthful Promise," which was aimed at nabbing Israeli soldiers in exchange for Lebanese prisoners. Hezbollah succeeded in the operation and successfully took hostage two Israeli soldiers, Eldad Regev and Ehud Goldwasser. During the operation, eight Israeli soldiers were killed. This ignited the sequence of events which led to the Israel/Lebanon summer war.
The story goes further back than July of 2006. It really began in April 1979! On Sabbath day, April 22, 1979, Danny and Smadar Haran met up with a monster named Samir Kuntar.
Danny and Smadar were a loving Israeli couple. They had everything they could ever hope for... love, marriage and two precious daughters, Einat, 4 and Yael, 2. That day Smadar was home anticipating Danny's return from work and preparing for the Sabbath. She had just picked up their two toddlers from day care. Danny, on the other hand, was looking forward to nothing more than getting home and spending time with his wife and his two young daughters.
Traditionally, the Sabbath is the most special day of the week, the day the family gets to spend time together and celebrate their bond to Judaism. It was especially important for Danny who, as a young father, had to work extra hard in order to provide for his wife and young children. Little did Smadar know that this would be the last Sabbath she would celebrate with her family because of a man named Samir Kuntar. Around midnight the nightmare began!
(Samir Kuntar; also spelled: Sameer Kuntar, Kantar, Qantar, Kintar, Quntar, Qintar, Cantar)
What's the deal with Samir Kuntar?
Since April 22, 1979 Samir Kuntar has been incarcerated in an Israeli prison. Samir Kuntar, a Druze from the Lebanese mountain village of Aabey , who currently holds the dubious distinction of being the longest held Lebanese prisoner in Israeli jails. Kuntar is currently ONE of THREE Lebanese prisoners still serving time in Israeli jails. Kuntar was convicted and sentenced to a 542 years prison sentence by the state of Israel . Israel even almost tried to pass a bill to have him executed! What did he do? What was his crime? The crime Kuntar committed was one of the most sickest, heinous, barbaric crime ever committed on Israeli soil.
The crime took place on April 22, 1979 when Kuntar led a group of 3 other terrorists, all members of Abu Abbas PLF (Palestinian Liberation Front), infiltrated the Israeli coastal city of Naharya and broke into the Haran family apartment and took Danny Haran and his 4 year old daughter Einat Haran hostage. When Kuntar and his gang broke into the apartment, the wife, Smadar Haran and her 2 year old daughter Yael, were also present in the apartment. Smadar managed to find a crawl space into which she, her younger daughter, 2 year old Yael, and a neighbor all hid. To prevent Yael from crying and giving away their hiding place, Smadar covered the child's mouth with her hand.
Kuntar and his group took Danny and little Einat down to the beach. At the beach Kuntar shot Danny in the back. Danny survived the gun shot but moments later was drowned personally by Kuntar. All this was witnessed by the young daughter. Kuntar forced her to watch her father's murder so that [in Kuntar's words] "his death would be the last sight she would ever see." Kuntar then laid the little toddler down on a rock and smashed her head with the butt of his rifle. She didn’t die right away, so Kuntar beat her with his rifle repeatedly, over and over again (all this done, while she was screaming and crying), to ensure that she was dead.
Meanwhile in the apartment, Smadar's attempt to muffle her daughter's whimpering proved fatal. Yael was accidentally suffocated and died within the hiding space.
And on July 12, 2006, the ONLY reason why Ehud Goldawasser and Eldad Regev were kidnapped by Hezbollah, was to force Israel to release/surrender Samir Kuntar.
Now the dilemma is, should Israel release Samir Kuntar in order to gain the release of Goldwasser and Regev? Unfortunately Kuntar might be freed in the next couple of days in exchange for these two soldiers, or their caskets, since there hasn’t been even one sign of life since their kidnapping on July 12th. For those who didn’t know, Samir Kuntar was the only reason that’s been holding back the release of Goldwasser and Regev, for almost a year and a half.
The nerve of Hezbollah to honor a child killer like Kuntar. The nerve of Hezbollah to kidnap two Israeli soldiers in order to force Israel to release a child murderer from jail! This is what Hezbollah is all about.
The July 12, 2006 abduction was originally named “Operation Freedom Samir Kuntar,” by Hezbollah. But days before the kidnapping Hezbollah changed the name of the operation to “Operation Truthful Promise,” due to the fact that Nasrallah made a true promise to the family of Samir Kuntar to have him freed from jail.
In September 2000, three Israeli soldiers were kidnapped by Hizbollah, along with an Israeli businessman, Elhanan Tennenbaum. Nasrallah immediately demanded Israel release all its Lebanese prisoners INCLUDING Samir Kuntar. In 2004 Israel was holding a TOTAL of 26 Lebanese prisoners. That same year, 23 out of those 26 prisoners were released, in order to secure the release of those 3 IDF (Israeli Defense Force) soldiers as well and Elhanan Tennenbaum. This prisoner exchange also had a second phase, which involved Hezbollah providing solid evidence on the fate of Ron Arad (the Israeli pilot who went missing in Lebanon in 1986) and in exchange, Israel would release the 24th Lebanese prisoner, Samir Kuntar! Hezbollah failed to deliver the information on Arad, and the deal was off.
In 2006, when Goldwasser and Regev were kidnapped Israel was out of bargain chips, its only choice in order to gain information on the fate of these two soldiers is the release Samir Kuntar. Who even knows if Goldwasser and Regev are alive! Let’s not forget, the four years prior to the “infamous Israel-Hezbollah prisoner exchange of 2004,” Israel had no idea on the fate of their soldiers until the day of the exchange. Only on the day of the exchange Israel found out, they would receive 3 caskets instead of 3 soldiers.
It is beyond sickening, a man who beat to death a little toddler is celebrated for his glorious deed. Kuntar has been dubbed by some parts of the Arab world as the “Dean of World Prisoners.” Who would imagine? Hezbollah crossing the border into Israel, killing four Israeli soldiers and kidnapping 2 more, going through all this trouble, JUST to free a child killer!
There is another point worth mentioning. Hezbollah has never claimed that Kuntar was innocent or that he may have been framed. They only demand his release as if he were being held unlawfully and that Israel had no right to imprison him.
Kuntar is probably the most hated person by the Israeli public. He is known as the “killer of Nahrya” instead of “terrorist of Nahrya.” And to think that this person is being released under the context of threat, extortion, and blackmail! If it wasn’t for kidnapping of soldiers, Kuntar would have continued to serve out his sentence.
Israel has an extensive history of releasing prisoner with blood on their hands, it has been done in the past and most expect that, it would happen again. This time with Kuntar. It is important to keep in mind that prisoners who are in Israeli jails are serving time for something. Israel is not a "gangster" or "lawless" state that imprisons people based solely on a whim. Every prisoner was charged, stood trail, convicted and properly sentenced. They were not kidnapped simply because they were Arabs. Hence, there is no justification in comparing the kidnapped Israeli soldiers to Samir Kuntar.
There is a fine line between a humanitarian release of prisoners or releasing prisoners for the sake of peace AND knuckling under to unadulterated extortion. There is also a huge difference between someone with hatred in his head and he who has blood on his hands! Nobody expects that someone like Kuntar who is released will become Lovers of Israel! But someone and others like Kuntar who have committed murder or collaborated in the planning of that murder should be considered an unacceptable risk. It goes beyond forgiving terrorism. It becomes an abetting in any future terrorism carried out by those released. Israel will viewed as a weak state that can be brought to its knees by extortion.
If Israel was to release Kuntar it would be the biggest thing they ever surrendered! The Sinai Peninsula, Israel gave back under negotiations, the West Bank and Gaza Israel also gave back under negotiations of the Oslo Accords. In 1985 during the famous “Ahmed Jibril Exchange” Israel released 1200 prisoners for the release of 3 IDF soldiers, some of those prisoners who were released had blood on their hands including Kozo Okamoto who killed 22 Israelis. BUT even all those 1200 prisoners put together, cannot compare to the savage murderous act committed by Samir Kuntar. Israel also currently holds 10,000 Palestinian prisoners, some of which have been incarcerated for conspiring, carrying out, and masterminding murderous terrorist attacks (suicide bombings, shootings, etc…), which targeted Jewish civilians in Israel. BUT even all those 10,000 prisoners put together cannot compare to Kuntar.
Kuntar could have shot little Einat or blown her up, but instead he took his loaded gun and just bludgeoned her on the head repeatedly for several minutes until she was dead! Lets not also forget, the fact, that several minutes prior to murdering Einat, Kuntar drowned her father in front of her, and forced her to watch.
Anyone, who reads this article and does not shed a tear, is not a human being.
What kind of country is this to release a child murderer from jail under the context of threat and extortion? If we release Kuntar, we know what message it sends to Hezbollah and other terror groups like Hamas, etc… But what obscene messages does it send to the families of those Israeli murdered, especially Smadar Haran whose daughter was beaten to death by a man who hates Jews. What Kuntar did was not only a terrorist act but should also be considered a criminal act. And what demoralizing message does it send to the Israeli troops and security services who risked their lives in order to capture and arrest the terrorists?
There is no doubt that Goldwasser and Regev need to be unconditionally released from Lebanon, Syria, Iran or from wherever they are now being held. Olmert's "good will gesture" has disaster written all over it. Appeasement didn't work with Hitler and it will not work with Hezbollah. "Negotiations" will not work either for over what exactly is there to negotiate? How far will Israel go to assure its own disappearance?
There will be nothing positive coming out of the release of Kuntar. There is no worst context of releasing prisoners than under the context of threat. But today October 15, 2007 there is chatter within Israel to drop the demand for Ron Arad for the exchange of Kuntar.
The Official Website of Samir Kuntar
http://SamirKuntar.net
Israel moots Kuntar prisoner swap
(AL-JAZEERA 9/17/2006)
http://english.aljazeera.net/News/Archive/Archive?ArchiveID=35918
Free the monster Samir Kuntar
(Haaretz article 09/04/2006)
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/758531.html
Plot to free terrorist (Kuntar) may have led to fight
(Washington Times 8/8/2006)
http://www.washtimes.com/world/20060807-111009-8857r.htm
Nasrallah says no deal without Samir
(9/12/2006 BBC article "Nasrallah Demands Militant Free")
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5340364.stm
"Hizballah Wants Israel to Free Child-Killer"
(Cybercast News Service, 7/18/2006)
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=/ForeignBureaus/archive/200607/INT20060718b.html
More than 25 years later, militant still atop Hezbollah's list for swap
(Seattle Times 8/16/2006)
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003168928_lebswap02.html?syndication=rss
Why Hezbollah Attacked Israel
(Mens News Daily 8/09/2006)
http://mensnewsdaily.com/2006/08/09/why-hezbollah-attacked-israel
Samir Kuntar to be released very soon
The Jerusalem Post 1/6/2007
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1167467671390&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
Posted by: The Murder of Jewish Toddlers! What HEZBOLLAH is “ALL ABOUT!” | Nov 17, 2007 1:29:42 AM
I'm really disturbed by the content of this persons email. No one who so readily wishes for my death would ever get me to be interested in their religion or any idea that they have. Further, no logical person could believe that G-d would expect his people to behave in such a miserable and depraved way. That is just my personal opinion. Apparently there are a lot of people around like Ali, and I don't know how to help them. Also, Ali, by his own words, lacks personal integrity in that he professes to wish for the peace of your family in one moment and wishes for your death the next. This is sick, and it means that his words mean nothing, except for perhaps that he is a dangerous person.
Posted by: Seattle | Nov 17, 2007 8:46:22 AM
I have very mixed feelings from this one... The direction "Ali"'s emails took was frankly very disturbing. He should have quit while he was behind. But I have to say that I was equally disturbed by your decision to write to his VP of HR and use your email exchange with the knowledge that it could, in the worst case, cost a him his job and source of income and ability to provide for his family. He didn't actually do anything more than offend you with his words. There was no direct attack on you. It was a quite useless exchange of ideas and ideologies, and he was offensive, but you crossed a line that I think could make a reader and commenter on your post fear a very personal and painful "payback" for sharing a point of view that you find offensive.
I was disappointed by this one. Sorry.
Posted by: nrg | Nov 17, 2007 7:33:02 PM
"A waste of key strokes and valuable coffee drinking time."
Nice.
I've had conversations, in real life, with folks like Ali. This was back in my yout', when I was more active directly helping the homeless and down-trodden than these days.
Things would start off well enough, but then spiral out toward topics where my inner "spidey" sense would start buzzing like mad.
I was most often too stupid to realize that, below the harmless semi-madness, I was putting myself in harm's way much of the time. It is only by G-d's grace that I wasn't harmed by anything more substantial than mad rantings.
Thus it is that Ali's first post, to me, already was recognizable as one a' those "slippery slope" things, and about as attractive to me as the slew of medical trackbacks and fake comments I am continually deleting from the backstage area of my website. Delete; delete!!
Cheers,
Posted by: Wry Mouth | Nov 17, 2007 8:09:43 PM
Rami... I don't pretend to understand anything about this mindset.
Superpharm... Yeah, I need to use it far more often than I do.
brad... I tell you what. When you have a blog with your real name... pictures of yourself, wife and kids... and the name of the town where you live... you can decide to carry on an extended conversation with someone who comes right out and says you should be killed. In the mean time I think it went on far too long as it was.
psychotoddler... The reason I turned him in wasn't because the conversation was going nowhere. It was because it had arrived... at his conclusion that I should be killed. I wanted it on record that he had crossed a very clear red line and that 'the authorities' were aware of who he was in case something bad should happen to me. Sure he might have been just kidding, but my name is on this blog as are pictures of myself, my wife and kids. Who knows if he has family or friends over here.
tnspr569... I was young and idealistic back then, I really thought I could influence people... change the world. :-)
psachya... What kind of idiot would follow his own advice?!
David S... No, but then I didn't expect them to. It was an internal matter as far as they are concerned. I just wanted it on record... just in case.
Back of the Hill... The fluency thing shouldn't be an issue so long as both parties are making a good faith effort to understand one another. He was in transmit mode and was ignoring everything I said up to the point where I told him to sod off. Then his real colors began to show.
The Murder of Jewish Toddlers... While it as admittedly interesting reading, it is extremely bad form to paste an entire blog post into some-one's comment board.
Seattle... At the end there I became seriously worried that he might be dangerous.
nrg... Let me paint a picture for you: You have a blog. You use your real name on the blog, have pictures of yourself and your family... and even make frequent mention of the town and neighborhood where you live. One day you write a post on your blog ranting about people who think that rape victims invite attacks by dressing provocatively. The post is well received and generates a lot of buzz in the blogosphere. One day you get an email from a man who tries to engage you in conversation about your post. He seems to be a religious person who simply wants to try to convince you that women should take more responsibility for their attire since there are men out there who simply can't control themselves. You exchange a few emails and it quickly becomes clear that he isn't interested in your point of view and only wants to tell you his own... so you politely, but firmly tell him that you wish to end your exchange and not to contact you any more. Instead of honoring your request he responds that you should be raped by someone soon so that you will learn your lesson. You notice that he has been writing from work using his work email and he works for a well known company. Do you honestly mean to tell me that you WOULDN'T get in touch with his company? Who then? The police? They will tell you (quite correctly) that no crime has been committed. He was (probably) speaking hypothetically. No, in my case the guy didn't break any laws and there was no other way for me to make sure that somehow his conversation with me went on the record SOMEWHERE. If he had honored my request/demand not to contact me any further I would have been fine and certainly would not have turned him in. But the moment he started talking about wishing for my death (slow or fast), I had to take him seriously and make him bear some responsibility for both ignoring my request to break off the email exchange, as well as coming very close to communicating an actual threat. The only way to do that was to latch on to the one concrete rule/law he actually broke; he used his company's resources to harass (and possibly threaten) me. I think the problem with the way you are looking at this is that you think these were only 'words and ideas' we were exchanging. I think once you think about the fact that I am totally public with my name, location and identity of my family... and this guy sounds a lot like a jihadist who, judging by the ease with which he tossed around the idea of my death, could easily have friends or family in my neck of the woods... I did the only thing possible under the circumstances. If he loses a job over his stupidity, too bad... he can get another job. I (or a member of my family) get killed? There's no do-over button for that, my dear.
Wry Mouth... Since that time I have learned to listen much more closely to my 'spidey sense' as you put it so well.
Posted by: treppenwitz | Nov 17, 2007 11:05:42 PM
I hear that point. so let me emphasize that you should only do what i was recommending if you dont feel any personal danger from this person. Meaning, if you think there is any chance whatsoever that this guy G-d forbid would personally arrange for an act of terrorism against you... then by all means report him, or better yet track him down and put one in the back of his head. But my impression was that this was a guy who in his religious mindset felt that your death was something that would be a positive outcome, but that he personally wasnt gonna do bupkis about it. In that case... thats the only type of terrorist you can engage with. and then you might as well, unless you were really planning on tracking him down and using option B from above.
Posted by: Brad | Nov 18, 2007 7:21:23 AM
and you asked how I would deal with it...just giving you how i think I would deal with it--though admittedly i might feel different if it was actually me dealing with it.
Posted by: brad | Nov 18, 2007 7:24:25 AM
Death is not something to play games with. I haven't any problem with what you did. The question of whether you should have engaged him in dialogue isn't black and white. One day a conversation like that is going to have a positive ending.
The rub is that you'll probably never know when it does.
Posted by: Jack | Nov 18, 2007 10:39:40 AM
Sounds like carrot-and-stick dawah (proselytism to Islam) to me -- just another version of "convert or die." I'm glad you reported him.
Posted by: Rahel | Nov 18, 2007 1:36:51 PM
I can honestly tell you that I wouldn't contact his job or the police. I don't think he threatened you or said anything that would make me believe he was going to take any other action than to write emails and spread his rather warped view. I think you are the one that made this "real". This is just my opinion. I appreciate the analogy you wrote to try to convince me that what you did was self-protection for you and your loved ones. But, was it really only that, or did you enjoy hitting that send button to his company with the hopes that you'd make him hurt just a little? It just seems less than what I would expect from you. Still disappointed. But it's not a big thing, and you don't need to try to convince me. I just disagree with your assessment and your tactic. No more, no less.
I can't imagine having to be bombarded by those kinds of emails daily. Maybe that's why I don't have a blog. ;-)
P.S. Totally unrelated, but...Perfect eggs are just a week away!! :-D
Posted by: nrg | Nov 18, 2007 4:09:50 PM
BRad... No, option number two never occurred to me. Honestly.
Jack... That is true. I just hope the opposite doesn't hold true.
Rahel... I'm not particularly proud of reporting him. But I believe 100% that it was the appropriate move at the time.
nrg... did you enjoy hitting that send button to his company with the hopes that you'd make him hurt just a little?" No, actually it never occurred to me that such a move was in any way offensive. I was acting purely on defensive instincts. As I have pointed out already, my only goal was to make sure he understood that not only did I know who he was, but that he wasn't operating with impunity in some dark corner of the net where there was no sheriff. It is hard for me to explain to someone living in Norway what it was like living here in Israel during the war and feeling that this nut was one more potential ketyusha about to be fired over the border. My being public and my family being exposed was at the center of my decision. Believe me, if I had wanted to go offensive I know several very good h@ckers who could have mounted a denial of service attack against him and/or his company that they would still be trying to get out from under. I'm just saying.
Posted by: treppenwitz | Nov 18, 2007 4:19:48 PM
Trep, you really blew it. That "Facebook" invitation was your one chance to be the smiling Black face at the Klan rally. Be a mensch -- send "Ali" an invite to your Facebook right now. I'm sure "Ali" and his colleagues would be thrilled to explain how you err by existing.
Posted by: Bob | Nov 18, 2007 4:23:55 PM
You did the right thing by reporting him. Death threats should never be taken hypothetically.
Posted by: psachya | Nov 18, 2007 5:22:04 PM
I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. Had he threatened and you threatened exposure back, it would have seemed like a response that could have achieved what you wanted to achieve. But you followed through.
But, as I said, we aren't convincing each other of anything here, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. :-)
Posted by: nrg | Nov 18, 2007 6:15:25 PM
Hi Trep,
I deal with those kind of folks several times a year. They suck.
Some people are so stuck ideologically that they can't even tolerate the different thoughts of others. We're simply bad guys who victimize others... even if we don't and that's patently not true.
The reason I do occasionally write them back is that every now and then, they listen and begin to see the other side. Fortunately, my ratio is good, roughly one in every four will listen if I press them back and hold ground.
So, while this guy was a loss, maybe one of the next ones won't be. A long as you have the time and patience to spend a few minutes typing back, you'll eventually get something back.
You're a good man, Mr. David. Please don't let one turd stop you from occasionally taking a chance on making a positive difference in the world.
Always wishing you and yours well... even when work gets so busy that I don't get to comment here as often as I'd like.
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Posted by: Maksim-Smelchak | Nov 19, 2007 5:32:54 AM
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