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Tuesday, November 07, 2006

No dog in this fight

They say that decisions are made by those who show up.  This is especially true of elections. 

I was raised by a couple of dyed-in-the-wool liberal democrats who voted religiously and who even volunteered their time for candidates when the mood was upon them. 

However, for the first time since I turned 18, I didn't vote in an American election. 

Even when I was in the navy and sailing around Asia and the South Pacific on a frigate I managed to cast an absentee ballot.  And two years ago I voted in the presidential election from the comfort of my kitchen table here in Israel.

But at some point I made the decision not to vote in this year's mid-term election.

I've dealt with the issue of expat election ethics in the past so I won't rehash it in excruciating detail here.  But the long and short of it is that while I can (mostly) justify voting in a presidential election because of the potential impact on the part of the world where I now live... the mid-term elections are not likely to have any substantive impact on Israel.

Let's face it, the candidates from both major parties have been jumping through hoops to prove their pro-Israel bona fides, and to vote solely based on local issues in the state where I'm still registered (Connecticut) when I won't really be affected by the results seems, well... just wrong.  I mean, what are they gonna do... ding my trust fund with a new tax??? [kidding, I'm dirt poor just like all of you!]

It may seem to many that I crapped out on my civic duty... but I truly feel that I don't have a dog in this particular fight.  Zahava and I will just have to wait another two years before we once again refuse to tell each other who we voted for.


Posted by David Bogner on November 7, 2006 | Permalink


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Is Lieberman still running in CT? (Independant?) There's so much mud slinging here where I am that the media isn't reporting on what's going on in other states. Would the selection of Lieberman vs. Lamont have any impact on US/Israeli relations? Not trying to question your politics, just wondering about this issue since I'm a former CT Yankee myself.

Posted by: Nighthawk700 | Nov 7, 2006 1:55:07 PM

Au contraire, mon cher! The 4th Congressional race between rising star Diane Farrell and moderate Repub Shays is too close to call and it's ESSENTIAL to get a good Dem in there to elect Dem leadership!!! If she loses by two votes, Mom and I will be mad as hell! Also, even though Lieberman is ahed (sob) by 12 points, any votes for Lamont would be dearly appeciated. Bottom line, kid, don't skip even one chance to have a say--no matter how "out of it" you may feel!!!

Posted by: Delmar Bogner | Nov 7, 2006 4:21:02 PM

Good gravy! A son of a Lamont supporter! Worse, a writer who thinks both parties are pro-Israel.

To maintain the general warm and fuzzy feelings I have about this place I must go away for about 48 hours.

For the love of all that is good and reasonable, would someone please get Trep's dad a subscription to National Review?

Posted by: Doctor Bean | Nov 7, 2006 4:37:02 PM

Ok.. i'll throw my 2-cents in. Despite you're thinking that you don't have a reason to vote in the local elections here... can I remind you that there ARE other issues besides Israel. (hard to believe, i know!) and you have a gay sister and many gay friends here in CT who would LOVE another couple of votes for candidates who will either support the gay issues or at the very least will not block our forward progression towards marraige.
I, too, like Dad will be upset if things are close.

Posted by: val | Nov 7, 2006 4:53:33 PM


He is a Red Sox fan and his sister loves the Yankees.

Everyone knows that the AL is the biggest embarrassment in baseball.

Give them a break. A little time and counseling and we can bring them over from the dark side.

The National League is calling you. Baseball played in its natural state.

No questions asked, just pick a team.......

Posted by: Jack | Nov 7, 2006 5:33:25 PM

I think I'm in the minority here but I agree with you.
Let the people who still live here (in the US) choose their own politicians.

Posted by: Shifra | Nov 7, 2006 7:29:54 PM

Honestly, I wish I was as sure as you are that the Democratic Party is as likely to support Israel as the Republicans. All polls of registered Democrats indicate that the Democrat rank and file wants America to have a more neutral (i.e. less pro-Israel) stance on the Israel-Palestine issue. I'm concerned that the Democrat leadership will start to advocate a more neutral position to keep the rank and file happy. I wish that weren't the case, because I think America's support of Israel would be stronger if both parties agreed on that issue, but alas that is not my impression of reality here in the U.S.

Posted by: Fern | Nov 7, 2006 7:39:23 PM

It's not even a question of specific support for Israel. I can't remember who said "There's always somebody or something worth voting against." (Robert Heinlein?) Don't discount the impact of mid-term elections, especially since it can affect control of the legistlative bodies, and probably will this time.

But the expat issue is a separate one.

Posted by: Iris | Nov 7, 2006 10:29:59 PM

So you think Israel wouldn't be affected if Congressional Democrats cut off funding for our Iraqi allies (as they did 35 years ago to the South Vietnamese)? Tell it to Cambodia.

Also, as Fern points out, the Democrats of late have developed a rather nasty anti-Israeli streak (I would even go so far as to say a predeliction to anti-Semitism).

Posted by: Bob | Nov 7, 2006 10:36:58 PM

Hi Trep,

Liebs is a relatively safe bet, but much of the mainstream rank and file of the US Democratic Party aren't like that.

They support organizations like CAIR (a CAIR candidate is running in Southern California) and espouse "secular progressive thought" processes of rather frightening proportions.

And the Democrats aren't what they used to be.

One of my favorite authors said this:

"To all intents and purposes, when the Democratic Party jettisoned Joseph Lieberman over the issue of his support of this war, they kicked me out as well. The party of Harry Truman and Daniel Patrick Moynihan -- the party I joined back in the 1970s -- is dead. Of suicide."

I don't like either party much, but I fear the Democrats more.


Posted by: Maksim-Smelchak | Nov 7, 2006 10:42:50 PM

Hi Trep,

One more link:



Posted by: Maksim-Smelchak | Nov 7, 2006 10:47:38 PM

Well I am out the door to go vote now, and then afterwards, I can go get my free darn tasty taco, for voting.

Woo Hoo!

My only delimna is the governor race - should I vote my party all the way, or for the second time in my life, vote Republican....hmmm? Won't know until I am standing in line.

Posted by: jaime | Nov 7, 2006 10:53:14 PM

See? There really is no such thing as an innocent remark.
It's always refreshing to read partisan politics just to know that there are still people out there invested in the process, even if their views are diametrically opposed to my own and to eachothers'.
I met a nurse in Nj this morning who told me that neither she nor her husband have EVER voted. I think one should vote every chance they get. I'm very into the process, and I find it refreshing. Although it is true that you have your own democracy to vote in.

Posted by: Jersey Boy (Larry Stiefel) | Nov 7, 2006 10:58:01 PM

I hope you turn in your american Passport as well.
The Shays-Farell fighht is a real issue, and just saying no an otherwise wonderful Bush supporter like Lieberman is more important than ever. To suggest that Lamont won't be a strong advocate for supporting israel is immature, and inasmuch as the only sitting president to call for the establishment of a Palestinian State is the incumbent, the facile way those on the right make pronouncements about the"dangers" of my party can only be classified as disingenuous at best. You go, Delmar! And by the way, you proto fascist right wing demagogue unfeeling imperialist supporters of oil funded state sponsored terrorism, it is liberalism which freed the Jews from the ghetto, not the economic theories of Adam Smith.

Posted by: jordan Hirsch | Nov 7, 2006 11:05:18 PM

I hope you turn in your american Passport as well.
The Shays-Farell fighht is a real issue, and just saying no an otherwise wonderful Bush supporter like Lieberman is more important than ever. To suggest that Lamont won't be a strong advocate for supporting israel is immature, and inasmuch as the only sitting president to call for the establishment of a Palestinian State is the incumbent, the facile way those on the right make pronouncements about the"dangers" of my party can only be classified as disingenuous at best. You go, Delmar! And by the way, you proto fascist right wing demagogue unfeeling imperialist supporters of oil funded state sponsored terrorism, it is liberalism which freed the Jews from the ghetto, not the economic theories of Adam Smith.

What? I promise that I am technically well educated, but I have no idea what this even means???

Posted by: Fern | Nov 8, 2006 12:57:21 AM

Jordan, I didn't say Lamont wouldn't be a strong advocate, I asked if it would be an issue. I left CT over 10 years ago. I don't know much about how the politics are there now. That's why I phrased it in the form of a question.

Posted by: Nighthawk700 | Nov 8, 2006 1:03:27 AM

I guarantee you loving liberal Jews that when Iran nukes Israel it will be democRATS in power that stand by and let it happen.


You have to be willfully blind not to see the tidal wave of anti-semitism sweeping Europe and beginning to swell here in the US. It's the US liberals that see Eurabia as the beacon for the planet and the system to emulate. You are marching right into the gehto all over again ... laying down your arms and surrendering to your enemies. You are voting exactly as Osama wants you to vote. I want you to remember this when the nukes fall on Israel and Israel retaliates 1000 fold. YOU helped it happen.

Posted by: Scott | Nov 8, 2006 1:48:48 AM

Bravo, Scott

Posted by: Ma? | Nov 8, 2006 3:57:58 AM

I usually try to stay out of political discussions with people, especially those I don't know. However, Israel *will* be affected by the policies set forth by the administration in power. In that regard, we all have a dog in this hunt.

I'll go no further than that, in order to maintain harmony. But.. the world is watching. :)


Thailand Gal

Posted by: Thailand Gal | Nov 8, 2006 5:04:55 AM

I almost made it to the voting booth today. Ironically, I was prevented from exercising my democratic right by the wonderful NY subway system. If anyone had any doubts about the way I would have voted had I made it back home on time, after what happened today there shouldn't be any! Ironically, living in NY, of all places, I feel almost like an outlaw or a rebel, although I never intended to be one. In the end, I don't feel terrible about missing the election, since there was very little contest in my jurisdiction. Voting is still a good habit, and I try to do it when I can... but something's telling me, a more intense struggle is still ahead.

Posted by: Irina | Nov 8, 2006 6:40:21 AM

I am with you on this issue. Very smart not telling each other who you voted for. My dad always tells my mom who he is going to vote for, and then she goes and votes for all the opposing candidates, basically negating bith their votes. They really do love each other, though...

Posted by: mcaryeh | Nov 8, 2006 8:24:28 AM

Thanks Maksim. Your link http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2006-10-29-1.html was interesting. I read it first without noticing it was by the author of one of my favorite childhood books "Ender's Game." Cool :)

I have begun to make the conclusion for myself that we are going to get thrashed much, much, harder by the ter--rists, the Iranians, and all of our enemies who will happily work together against countries like the U.S., Israel, and other countries who they dislike.

We have the power to take all of them on and crush them, even in a careful and civilized manner, but, we are not willing to use it. Too many people refuse to see things for what they are, and refuse to defend themselves. Iran should not be allowed to become a nuclear power, for example. We are sympathizing too kindly with terrorists, as if they were our equals. Opposition by India led by Gandhi against Britain was a conflict where both sides could deserve respect. But not opposition by throat-slitting suicide bomber terr-rist fanatics and leaders like Ahmadinejad who keep "Mein Kampf" on his bedstand and who denies basic history. The nuclear sites in Iran should be decimated, even if there are 200 of them, or that technology will end up decimating our cities.

Instead, I think we will see many more acts of terr-rism, the possible loss of several cities, economic instability, and lots of other bad things. (I am thinking of moving to the country ...) And at the time when we are spread the most thin (speaking for the U.S.) global powers who really don't care too much about will take advantage of us.

The people that surround me at work in Seattle often attack the people who are trying to save us instead, as if they are the enemies. For example, many co-workers most passionate arguments are how the rights of the prisoners in Guantanamo are being violated. One cheered Ahmadinejad when he gave his speech in the U.N. because it "put us in our place" and most importantly insulted Bush. He was their HERO; I kid you not. They are truly worried about global warming, which I don't entirely discredit (and we should start a national effort to solve the energy issue.) But they don't really fear these people with whom we are fighting. They don't understand just how cruel wars and conflict can really be. They have no experience in their pampered lifetimes to look to, and they didn't bother to read any history. Boring! They never bothered to see the rest of the world, except that weekend in Paris and London.

Finally, the U.S. is strapped financially with accumulated debt and a trade deficit. We have lost the love and support of many countries. We are losing our manufacturing and industrial base by exporting it to other countries who are actually willing to work. We are so powerful that every single thing that threatens us could be easily overcome ... except ... what I think we are going to do instead is just stick our heads in the sand on all counts, and not even try, until a time when things have become much more difficult. I don't see anyone in the current U.S. elections who will help us much. I'm quite concerned about my own country, not to mention looking at Israel with concern.

Posted by: Seattle | Nov 8, 2006 10:26:02 AM

Well, I bet I posted my little comment just late enough (and right before Treppenwitz's next entertaining post) that no-one will read it. No matter, if I were a really good writer (like ours here) ... I'd have my own blog. Thanks, David, for writing such interesting material.

Posted by: Seattle | Nov 8, 2006 10:36:14 AM

I'm looking forward to more of a balance of power now, where Congress and the Executive branches keep each other in check.

Seattle - I'm late to this too, but I read your comment and I like it. I can see the truth in it from my perspective.

Posted by: Steve Bogner | Nov 8, 2006 1:35:15 PM


As I have gotten older my views have side more with you and less with "them", though when I was in my 20's living in San Francisco, (though Israel always came first, so I wouldn't have had the sympathy towards Iran,) putting the US in it's place would have definitely been one of my chants.

I still hold on to a lot of my liberal views, but maturity and experience has definitely expanded my perspective.

Just a little sidenote - I went out Sat. night and where we were, there were a few "artists" standing on a corner selling t-shirts that read "Stop Bitching, start a Revolution". They were in their mid 20's and lived on a farm somewhere in West Virginia. They wanted to start a Revolution of Cooperation, Peace and Resolving of conflicts, etc. through their art. It was very noble and the ideology is awesome, but it's still ideology and they are still 20 something, whitebread, surburban youth.

I happen to be with my Iranian girlfriend, who actually grew-up during a very real revolution and proudly proclaim that she enjoys being a bitch, so she will have to pass on the t-shirt. It was a very funny exchange(probably because we were both quite tipsy.)

Posted by: jaime | Nov 8, 2006 4:02:06 PM

Nighthawk700... To be honest, one of the other reasons I didn't vote is that I did not manage to keep my eye on most of the issues in my local races in CT. I am not the type who votes a party line. I like to research the issues and vote for the candidates that best reflect my values on the issues that are important to me. I really didn't do that this time around.

Dad... Sorry I really didn't feel right about participating this year. There might be extremely worthy candidates running in many races, but since I am not there to reap the benefits (or bear the consequences) of the outcome, I really didn't feel right about voting.

Doctor Bean... Take all the time you need. But I'll warn you, the subscription won't do much for my dad. His problem isn't lack of information. He has an entirely different worldview. When I get him over here I'll work on him a bit. :-)

Val... There are small communities in Florida where a majority of the registered voters are 'snowbirds' (people who live up north and come down for the cold months). If I were a year-round residents of one of these communities I would feel angry at having so many votes on local issues and candidates coming from people who will not be around most of the time to deal with the results. In this election I had the right to vote in CT... but I am like one of these snowbirds and have decided to let the election be decided by those who will have to deal with the result of the elections.

Jack... if that's the case, why have American league teams won the world series 59.4% of the time?

Shifra... THANK YOU!

Fern... First of all, I hope you haven't gotten the impression I'm loyal to either party. I'm not. I have seen a lot of the data you have described and unfortunately the neutral positions being described in polling language are misleading. The Executive branch (which wasn't up for grabs this time) and the State Department (which has never really been up for grabs under either party) will really define America's position(s) in the middle east. I am trying to recall any time in the last two decades where the legislature imposed their views on middle east foreign policy on either the Executive branch or the State Department. That's why I didn't rush to the polls this time around.

Iris... I can't disagree with your statement, but the expat issue eclipses all others for me this time around.

Bob... See my response to Fern. The make or break issues over which the contested seats are going to preside are (IMHO) not going to be about Israel. I know I have the ability to vote on local issues... but do I have the right?

Maksim-Smelchak... Look, I moved TO Israel and not AWAY from the US. However, I will be honest and say I was finding it harder and harder to find good people to vote for over there. Not that it's much better here, mind you. :-)

jaime... Tacos for votes? Isn't that vote buying??? :-)

Jersey Boy... I like the old saying regarding both politics and sausages. Those who like either obviously haven't watched the process very closely.

Jordan... Come come... tell us how you really fell. :-) Seriously, that was one of the best straw men I've ever seen constructed there at the end. Extremely strong work.

Fern... Trust em when I tell you that to know Jordan is to love him. He is one of my closest friends and arguably one of the best read people I know. However with that love must come an acceptance that his world is painted in only two colors: black and white.

Scott... I promise you on a stack of Bibles that after I published this post I turned to my wife and said "I can't believe Scott hasn't chimed in yet. When he does I'm sure it will be a doozy". Thank you for not disappointing.

Ma?... Where have you been hiding yourself? :-)

Thailand Gal... Fair enough.

Irina... you're a law student, for crying out loud! If you don't vote who will???

mcaryeh... Are you seriously saying that your mother deliberately cancels out your father's vote. Yeef!

Seattle... All of the points you made were valid and pressing. But IMHO none of them will be swayed by the results of this mid-term election. Oh, and just for that I won't post today! ;-)

Steve... I'd push for legislation that would allow the various branches to hip and body check one another. :-)

Jaime... My favorite are these so-called anarchists who travel Europe disrupting these financial conferences. They are all well dressed/fed, and those who aren't living of an allowance from mummy and daddy are selling stuff to other anarchists (T-shirts, hats, jewelry, signs, buttons, etc.) in the best entrepreneurial/capitalist tradition.

Posted by: treppenwitz | Nov 8, 2006 5:25:07 PM

Isn't life grand. The US has now put San Fancisco values in place of "Don't Tread on Me" and "Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death". We deserve the hell on earth we now have openly asked for. God will now turn his face TOWARDS us and it will be an angry face. May His will fall upon this sick planet.

Posted by: Scott | Nov 8, 2006 6:23:13 PM

Treppenwitz - sorry to derail what would have been a perfectly great post today ;-) Btw I was perfectly fine with your original writing (and all that you do) ... so don't let me derail too much, k? LOL

Posted by: Seattle | Nov 8, 2006 7:11:15 PM

While one could argue that I used intemperate language, I was not really setting up a straw man.
This Republican party, with the help of Tom Delay, Jack Abramoff, Karl Rove, their cheerleaders in the media, and their incurious and intellectually inadequate President, has been an embarrassment to the party of Lincoln, Eisenhower, Javits, Rockefeller, Dole, and Goldwater. They are the worst kind of hacks, who used very negative campaigning, UNMATCHED BY THEIR OPPONENTS, and through the media intimidated left leaning and objective journalists alike from calling them on their corruption, arrogance, and incompetence. Their use of govenment contracts and revolving door lobbying, freezing out anyone who won't play from their book, their replacement of non partisan professionals with ideological fellow travelers, has led to a concentratin of wealth and power in the top tier of the economic system that has been unmatched in US history, and with their use of extra legal forms of law enforcement agains terrorists and citizens have caused the first stirrings of a state that if not quite fascistic certainly qualifies as a monopolistic oligarchy, to quote our friend Mike Spengler.
Believe me, I do not view things in black and white. I did not feel this way about Bush 1, nor even Reagan, who at least had the good sense to make use of professionals likke James Baker, Frank Carlucci, and George Schultz, even when I disagreed with them. It's just that these guys are simply that bad.
And what's worse, and this is the reason for my extreme language, is that other commenters here and elsewhere make comments that just assume we will tolerate their casual dismissal and denegration of people like Nancy Pelosi, Hillary Clinton, and Rus Feingold. Agree or disagree, these are not people who are out to destroy the US, nor are they oblivious to the dangers of the current world situation. They just have a different take. After Richard perle, Ken Adelman, half the generals in the US, the bulk of the European polity, who incidentally, are not blithering idiots, have all weighed in and agreed that Bush and co. have royally screwed the pooch, perhaps it's tme to give the "San Francisco" politicians a chance to do a better job. And if you hate them so much, just shut up. Your guys have had ample opportunity, and have failed miserably, wait silently and see what happens.

Posted by: jordan Hirsch | Nov 8, 2006 10:40:45 PM

Well, there is a faction that believes that Israel shouldn't even exist and that we shouldn't spend any time defending her and that we screwed up by..creating her, therefore we shouldn't help if called upon to do so.(Are countries hers??) Seriously. And you DO have a dog in that fight. And it starts at the local level.

Posted by: Kelly | Nov 8, 2006 10:46:28 PM

and they elected a muslim...ah glick hot mir getroffen...i guess we get the leaders we deserve...oy...stay safe

Posted by: marallyn | Nov 9, 2006 1:02:37 AM

Hi Jordan Hirsch,

I have to respectfully disagree with you.

SF is my home town (Born there at the Presidio in another age) and Pelosi is a very frightening person... full of paradoxes and very emplamatic of "The Man" that those earlier "San Francisco" folks would have condemned in a New York nanosecond. For example, she pretends to support unions while prohibiting unionization at her businesses (Hotels, winery, restaurants, etc.)... Those of us who are locals know that.

And her record with Israel and against terrorism is pretty ugly. I'd highly recommend that you put some more learning in on who she is and what she does.


Posted by: Maksim-Smelchak | Nov 9, 2006 2:42:24 AM

Hi Seattle,

You're welcome.

The older liberal generation needs to realize what so many have... that the "liberal movement" is very often allied to ideas that none of us would accept anymore like President Armed-Jihad in Iran.


Posted by: Maksim-Smelchak | Nov 9, 2006 2:44:06 AM

Jack... if that's the case, why have American league teams won the world series 59.4% of the time?


Posted by: Jack | Nov 9, 2006 5:45:50 PM

Maksim, I grant that Nancy Pelosi may not be the person I hope she is. And as a union member, I would take very seriously anyone's anti union stance.
But the reference to sanFrancisco politics was a more general statement about the more liberal wing of the democratic party, and i refuse to allow anyone to freely and without consequence denigrate the party that gave us Sociual Security, Medcaid, Medicare, NLRB, Head Start, etc .....
The casual dismissal and crude and snide comments from the right are tiresome, anti intellectual, and inaccurate, desigend to appeal to people's most base instincts. I relish serious arguments with serious conservatives, but I refuse to take seriously those who get their view of the world from Rush, Hannity, and Bill O'Reilly. These are demagogues of the worst order, and I will call them on it every time.

Posted by: jordan Hirsch | Nov 9, 2006 8:31:41 PM

David, after reading your justifications I agree with your non-voting decision. Now roll over and go back to sleep. The Dhimmocrats are in charge. What? They are going to draw further away from Israel? Thats a shame. But do continue to snooze.

Modern Isreal, too, seems to have lost its way in the jungles of 'dhimminitude'. Maybe in a few years evolution will reverse itself and freedom loving people will regrow their 'manhood' enough to stick up for themselves again. Maybe.

Posted by: 49erDweet | Nov 10, 2006 3:42:14 AM

Hi Jordan,

"...and without consequence denigrate the party that gave us Social Security, Medcaid, Medicare, NLRB, Head Start, etc."

All great ideas that worked for a few carefree generations and now are the major cause of the U.S. national debt. However, the road to hell is paved with good intentions as the old saying goes.

I will come up with a concrete example:

Medicare & Medicaid:

These two programs had the best of intentions and were very progressive for the 1960's, BUT...

We're in a new century now and it's primarily Medicare and Medicaid that are prime movers in the out-of-control spiralling of costs in the US healthcare industry.

Both Medical and Medicaid are very discriminatory healthcare programs (the "categories") and both push folks towards emergency rooms more than health maintenance or preventative healthcare.

Here's two sites about the same movement to reform healthcare in the USA:



I work in the healthcare industry with C-CHIP programs as well as both Medicare & Medicaid. And even more specifically I work with a high-risk pool, which is a bureaucratic way of saying that I work with people who need healthcare the most.

Sorry for my time on the soapbox... been riled up lately.


Posted by: Maksim-Smelchak | Nov 10, 2006 6:37:03 AM

It is erroneous to look at Medicaid and Medicare as failures. It is correct to note that over time, all sorts of government programs need to be re-evaluated, reformed, modified.
But let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. And were it up to Republicans, there would have been no attempt at all to deal with these problems. My point is that there is a progressive party, and a conservative party. Being Conservative means you have less of a chance for sins of commission. For me, I would rather commit those than sins of ommission, because that means I never even tried.
I also question the premise of your critique, respectfully, of course, but I think the last thing Dave wants is a wonkish discussion of Health Care reform.
It is my contention, as well as many true conservatives, that one of the main problems with the Bush administration is that it has not been conservative at all, but rather, a radicalizing force in American politics. That is neither bad nor good, but i think it has not worked out.

Posted by: Jordan Hirsch | Nov 10, 2006 8:03:49 AM

Jordan, Maksim, all ... I thought I should point out that, even though there are some differences in opinion as can be expected, I really appreciate coming to this site because I like both 1) seeing what different people really think and 2) learning new things. I feel that all here have offered some interesting points, no-one is wasting my time, and that at least everyone here is intelligent. Today anyway ;)

Well, things have changed substantially as of this last election, no matter who we voted for, so here's a toast to hoping things will work out for the best and working together for common interests.

Posted by: Seattle | Nov 10, 2006 8:31:50 AM

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