Comments on In which David shares sweeping cultural generalizations and also gets telepathic barbs from his wifeTypePad2006-11-21T10:40:19ZDavid Bognerhttps://www.treppenwitz.com/tag:typepad.com,2003:https://www.treppenwitz.com/2006/11/in_which_david_/comments/atom.xml/mcaryeh commented on 'In which David shares sweeping cultural generalizations and also gets telepathic barbs from his wife'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052531788342006-11-28T05:46:34Z2008-02-14T04:48:38Zmcaryehhttp://awhisperingsoul.blogspot.comI wonder how much of it was cultural norms and how much was personality. I know a number of women...<p>I wonder how much of it was cultural norms and how much was personality. I know a number of women of Ashkenazi descent who I imagine would also have a tough time breaking out of their hostess with the mostest role in a time of mourning.... </p>Ben-David commented on 'In which David shares sweeping cultural generalizations and also gets telepathic barbs from his wife'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550524ff188342006-11-23T18:26:53Z2008-02-14T04:47:57ZBen-DavidComparing this post to the one about haredim, David wrote: The Moroccan men aren't calling meetings to discuss how to...<p>Comparing this post to the one about haredim, David wrote:<br />
The Moroccan men aren't calling meetings to discuss how to force their wives to be attentive. <br />
- - - - - - - - - <br />
... because their Morroccan fathers-in-law have alredy done the work of cultural education.</p>
<p>But the Jews occupying the exotic/third-world/"people of color" slot are given a pass because "it's just their culture" - which must be respected - while those tagged as Western/"white" folks are fair game: their "culture" can be ridiculed with impunity.</p>
<p>Amazing to see this particularly nasty PC double standard worm its way into an INTRA-Jewish topic....<br />
</p>Rachel commented on 'In which David shares sweeping cultural generalizations and also gets telepathic barbs from his wife'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ec70688332006-11-22T22:14:16Z2008-02-14T04:48:22ZRachelI am a Sephardi of Moroccan origin and I have never experienced a shiva like the one you describe. I...<p>I am a Sephardi of Moroccan origin and I have never experienced a shiva like the one you describe. I am not passing judgement on your observations nor do I think you are lying or being insensitive but I just don't have experience with what you described. I don't remember mattresses on the floor or huge noisy parties. It was usually a somber affair with people pretending to be sad or<br />
emotionally affected. Moroccan Jewish traditions vary depending on where people lived or how religious they were. Also depends on class,education,sophistication,etc. Could be an Israeli thing. I don't know. <br />
Re gender roles: <br />
I married an Askenazi(Canadian, secular)and to add insult to injury was quite the chauvinist pig, and so were his brothers. Their mom waited on them hand and foot and they expected the same from their wives. They married seemingly submissive Asian women who in reality were the ones who wore the pants in the family. I know, poetic justice. My point some men are neanderthal it is not the exclusive domain of some groups. I also experienced a Shiva with my Askenazi in laws. The women sat on low stools and visitors brought trays of food.After a few hours the whole thing looked quite jolly. I was shocked. <br />
I do agree with you that traditional Sephardic mothers are quite attentive to their family members, males and females. Aren't most mothers?<br />
I don't have any objections comparing traditions but I am afraid that your audience is not diverse enough to allow for an honest exchange. I thank you however for trying to present the differences in a positive way but I still find myself mildly irritated. Go figure. <br />
Sometimes I find myself defending Jewish males to non Jewisih females because they have the reputation to be philanderers. I never make a difference between ashkenazi and sephardi when I bust people for stereotyping. As a matter of fact, I hate this ashkenazi/sephardi BS. We are more the products of our family histories and cultural environments than of Jewish <br />
tribal divisions</p>Alice commented on 'In which David shares sweeping cultural generalizations and also gets telepathic barbs from his wife'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ec5e488332006-11-22T16:22:49Z2008-02-14T04:47:58ZAlice"... and she comes from a home where the men take much more direction (to put it lightly) from the...<p>"... and she comes from a home where the men take much more direction (to put it lightly) from the women."</p>
<p>So all those men who were at the meeting learning about modesty will go home and tell their wives what to wear and their wives will laugh at them. Problem solved! </p>
<p>Happy Thanksgiving to you all!</p>
<p> </p>treppenwitz commented on 'In which David shares sweeping cultural generalizations and also gets telepathic barbs from his wife'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5505256f288342006-11-22T14:43:38Z2008-02-14T04:49:16Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.comRami... I should really pay you for the comparative culture lessons I get from your comments. :-) Shifra... So far...<p>Rami... I should really pay you for the comparative culture lessons I get from your comments. :-)</p>
<p>Shifra... So far so good. [ducks]</p>
<p>SF Lisa... you two will be juuuust fine. :-)</p>
<p>Jack... Yeah, to the guys. :-)</p>
<p>Westbankmama... I think that is rather unfair. The Moroccan men aren't calling meetings to discuss how to force their wives to be attentive. As the father of a pre-teen-aged daughter, I happen to like the fact that the Haredi community puts such a premium on modesty. But when a bunch of Rabbis call a meeting with a bunch of men and tell them to get their wives in line... my circuits trip. If you are having trouble telling the difference between me... an American/Israeli/Ashkenazi... finding certain community norms among sephardim to be worthy of comment, and my finding specific behavior of certain Rabbis in another community to be just out of bounds... then I really don't know what to say. </p>
<p>Chedva... I was wondering what had happened to you! As to your disclaimer, I toyed with posting a similar one, but let's face it... there is still a cultural taboo about noticing (and mentioning) different norms. I figured no matter what I wrote people would think I was either being racist or condescending... so I decided to just let it rip (so to speak).</p>
<p>Mickysolo... I think you and I may be suffering from 'greener grass on the other side of the fence' syndrome. :-)</p>
<p>Irina... Even with all the former Russians I work with on a daily basis, I still haven't gotten a handle on them culturally. You really need to come for a visit so I can ask you about a gazillion questions I would never ask one of my coworkers.</p>
<p>marallyn... Thanks. I knew there were at least a few marriages such as yours out there among the regular visitors and I'm glad you didn't take offense.</p>
<p>Josh... It's good that they see other cultures at an early age. I didn't get much exposure when I was younger and as a result feel like a bull in a china shop whenever I bump into something knew or exotic.</p>
<p>mercurial scribe... The whole concept of forced period of mourning is (IMHO) very healthy. No denial... no putting it off. You have to sit and look death in the face for a solid week. </p>mercurial scribe commented on 'In which David shares sweeping cultural generalizations and also gets telepathic barbs from his wife'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ec58c88332006-11-22T11:47:05Z2008-02-14T04:47:52Zmercurial scribehttp://www.mercurialscribe.comHow interesting... i've never attended a traditional shiva, so the whole idea is refreshing and fascinating. Time to mourn... not...<p>How interesting... i've never attended a traditional shiva, so the whole idea is refreshing and fascinating. Time to mourn... not exactly an American concept, you know?</p>Josh commented on 'In which David shares sweeping cultural generalizations and also gets telepathic barbs from his wife'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550524fef88342006-11-22T07:39:25Z2008-02-14T04:47:57ZJoshRegarding Moroccan shivas: I once had the very unfortunate job to drive my 8 year old son and two of...<p>Regarding Moroccan shivas: I once had the very unfortunate job to drive my 8 year old son and two of his friends to the shiva of their classmate who had just lost his mother to cancer. On the way, I quietly explained to them that it would be a tough experience, and people would be sad, and we should do our best to make the poor boy feel a bit better. But when we got there, it seemed to the kids I brought that a party was going on: lots of people, lots of noise, food, soda, and a pile of presents for the boy sitting shiva. They had a great time. Lo aleinu (not on us).</p>marallyn commented on 'In which David shares sweeping cultural generalizations and also gets telepathic barbs from his wife'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052506588342006-11-22T06:27:20Z2008-02-14T04:48:10Zmarallynhttp://shalomfromjerusalem.blogspot.comas an ashkenazi wife married to a spharadi husband...canada/kurdistan!!!let me point out that one it has never been boring and...<p>as an ashkenazi wife married to a spharadi husband...canada/kurdistan!!!let me point out that one it has never been boring and two the kids are tfu tfu tfu...pessach was a shocker the first year...and i missed kol nidre cuz i didn't recognize the tune...but do i know how to cook!!! stay safe great blog...ps may your friend know no more sorrow</p>Irina commented on 'In which David shares sweeping cultural generalizations and also gets telepathic barbs from his wife'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ecb9588332006-11-22T02:14:43Z2008-02-14T04:49:03ZIrinahttp://sicat222.blogspot.comAn interesting contrast of shivahs. My ex-boyfriend was over at our place after my grandmother passed away, and was very...<p>An interesting contrast of shivahs. My ex-boyfriend was over at our place after my grandmother passed away, and was very surprised by how noisy and cheerful the shivah seemed, with a lot of people coming and talking and with my mother trying to make everybody comfortable. Now, my mother happens to be a very hospitable person in general, but I have to say that's also at least somewhat of a cultural tradition in FSU, though we're all quite Ashkenazi. He then told me that American Ashkenazis tend to be much more solemn and quiet during shivas. Which certainly makes sense... but for some reason, doesn't seem to work that way with people in my community. Of course, there weren't as many people (our families don't tend to be so large), and we all set at the table rather than on the floor, but other than that... a Russian Jewish gathering at shiva is probably more like te one you described than a typical Ashkenazi one. And I am still trying to understand why.</p>Mickysolo commented on 'In which David shares sweeping cultural generalizations and also gets telepathic barbs from his wife'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550524f8188342006-11-22T01:52:27Z2008-02-14T04:47:51ZMickysolohttp://mikysolo.blogspot.comI recently visited a Sephardi shiva house in a suburb of Atlanta Georgia. I've never been treated as well in...<p>I recently visited a Sephardi shiva house in a suburb of Atlanta Georgia. I've never been treated as well in an Ashkenazi home. The mother of a friend I sit nex to in morning Minyan had passed. I was the only non Iranian in the house and was treated like royalty. I don't think their hospitality was because of shiva, but rather their every day attention to a guest. I wasn't familiar with much of the food and enjoyed anything I tried. I especially remember platters of delicious almonds and other nuts. Beats cookies and bagels any day.</p>Chedva commented on 'In which David shares sweeping cultural generalizations and also gets telepathic barbs from his wife'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550524ecc88342006-11-21T23:31:36Z2008-02-14T04:47:45ZChedvaGood for you Zahava. Stop those thoughts before they even have a chance to fully form. David, I was very...<p>Good for you Zahava. Stop those thoughts before they even have a chance to fully form.</p>
<p>David, I was very close to an Israeli Yemenite woman who was married to a Yemenite man and then remarried an American Ashkenazi. She always said she hopes her son marries an Israeli Yemenite woman and her daughter marries an American Ashkenazi male because she 'wants to see her children treated well'. (I am not giving an opinion here, just repeating what she said.)</p>westbankmama commented on 'In which David shares sweeping cultural generalizations and also gets telepathic barbs from his wife'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5505251dd88342006-11-21T17:09:46Z2008-02-14T04:48:27Zwestbankmamahttp://westbankblog.blogspot.comI seem to notice that you have more patience for "male chauvinist behavior" when it is done by people from...<p>I seem to notice that you have more patience for "male chauvinist behavior" when it is done by people from Morrocon descent, than you have for "male chauvinist behavior" when it is done by those who wear black hats and coats (previous post) or is this just my imagination?</p>Jack commented on 'In which David shares sweeping cultural generalizations and also gets telepathic barbs from his wife'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550524fbd88342006-11-21T16:23:40Z2008-02-14T04:47:54ZJackhttp://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/Traditional roles Sounds refreshing. ;)<p><i>Traditional roles</i> Sounds refreshing. ;)</p>sf lisa commented on 'In which David shares sweeping cultural generalizations and also gets telepathic barbs from his wife'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ec52788332006-11-21T16:17:15Z2008-02-14T04:47:48Zsf lisahttp://www.livejournal.com/~wildroze22lol, im going to say this isnt true, because my sephardic boyfriend wouldnt appriciate it otherwise... surprisingly our issue seems...<p>lol, im going to say this isnt true, because my sephardic boyfriend wouldnt appriciate it otherwise... surprisingly our issue seems to be the opposite. i want to be the "female" and do all the cooking and taking care of him, but he wants to help! it drives me nuts sometimes</p>
<p>i guess if thats our worst issue, its ok.</p>
<p>but still, some of the sephardic traditions throw me off when im not expecting it. and as an american, ive had to argue some things... like celebrating thanksgiving, which is something i wont give up, and something he just doesnt understand</p>Shifra commented on 'In which David shares sweeping cultural generalizations and also gets telepathic barbs from his wife'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5505253f788342006-11-21T15:34:13Z2008-02-14T04:48:48ZShifrahttp://askshifra.blogspot.comI don't know Zahava, but being an ashkenazi wife myself I'd bet this post will generate more han "telepathic barbs"...<p>I don't know Zahava, but being an ashkenazi wife myself I'd bet this post will generate more han "telepathic barbs" from your wife.<br />
You are on a roll this week! :-)<br />
</p>Rami commented on 'In which David shares sweeping cultural generalizations and also gets telepathic barbs from his wife'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052552888342006-11-21T13:51:17Z2008-02-14T04:48:59ZRami You must have heard of a generalized saying "the blacks always get scre*ed"… in a typical rural setting in Africa...<p>You must have heard of a generalized saying "the blacks always get scre*ed"… in a typical rural setting in Africa it’s the wife that gets it, not literally and directly of course, but they do everything… If you happened to visit some communities it would be more verbal than telepathy (she wouldn’t hold it back). :-)</p>