Comments on Unsung Swarthy HeroesTypePad2006-06-29T10:40:11ZDavid Bognerhttps://www.treppenwitz.com/tag:typepad.com,2003:https://www.treppenwitz.com/2006/06/swarthy_heroes/comments/atom.xml/soccerdad commented on 'Unsung Swarthy Heroes'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052418688342006-06-30T13:37:02Z2008-02-14T04:45:29Zsoccerdadhttp://profile.typekey.com/dhg4/I realize that this partly off-topic but do we have to use the word "collaborator?" I'm sure the the Palestinians...<p>I realize that this partly off-topic but do we have to use the word "collaborator?" I'm sure the the Palestinians have chosen the word very carefully and the unthinking media have accepted the usage uncritically.<br />
How many of those Arabs who have been killed for the crime of helping Israel really helped Israel? I thought the charge of helping Israel was often used because it was an effective way to intimidate or eliminate a potential rival. (The recent killing of a widow and her supposed lover seemed awfully fishy. Her murder seemed more like an "honor" killing. Once they've decided to kill someone they can make up the reason after the fact too.)</p>pk commented on 'Unsung Swarthy Heroes'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb52a88332006-06-30T10:35:58Z2008-02-14T04:45:06ZpkSalute to those brave ladies and gentlemen (doing the right thing)…You might be surprised David that there’re those who assist...<p>Salute to those brave ladies and gentlemen (doing the right thing)…You might be surprised David that there’re those who assist the ‘Zionist enterprise’ for what it is and even International Law cannot define their unusual patriotism.</p>
<p>Be Well and Safe, my friend. :) </p>PP commented on 'Unsung Swarthy Heroes'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb47e88332006-06-30T09:04:43Z2008-02-14T04:44:57ZPPhttp://goingslightlymad.blogspot.comDavid, you ended this post by mentioning "thoughtless comments" so I hope you don't mind if I counter a point...<p>David, you ended this post by mentioning "thoughtless comments" so I hope you don't mind if I counter a point made by a commenter here:</p>
<p>"Maybe a Palestinian collaborator is the Arab equivalent to any Israeli member of Gush Shalom . Simply willing to meet the enemy and sell out their own people for a screwed up ideology."</p>
<p>"Whereas Gush Shalom and Shalom Achshav seem to be motivated enough just hating Settlers."</p>
<p>To clarify: Many members of Gush Shalom definitely view the settlement movement, rightly or wrongly, as an obstacle to a two-state solution, towards which they are striving. However, implying that "hatred"- especially for their fellow Jews- motivates participation in the peace movement is just plain B******t. As is the very notion of comparing Jewish and Arab Israelis who choose to campaign for a political agenda with Palestinians who choose- or are pressurised for all manner of reasons from admirable to not-so- into providing crucial information to "enemy" forces. </p>
<p>Sorry, had to get that out of *my* system. Shabbat Shalom. </p>Tracey commented on 'Unsung Swarthy Heroes'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523d6f88342006-06-30T07:13:22Z2008-02-14T04:44:39ZTraceyhttp://thsprague.blogspot.com/Trep, As usual, you are not only a wonderful writer, but capture the issue in a profound way. I am...<p>Trep,<br />
As usual, you are not only a wonderful writer, but capture the issue in a profound way. I am so glad you are expressing your feelings and thoughts about what is happening in Israel, otherwise all I'd hear is what the U.S. media thinks is newsworthy. I wish I had something profound to say here, but you just blow me out of the water consistently. May G-d keep you and your family safe.</p>Bob commented on 'Unsung Swarthy Heroes'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb3d588332006-06-29T22:16:39Z2008-02-14T04:44:51ZBobYou are soooo Jewish in your thinking (in contrast to Muslim) - so I mean that as high praise. In...<p>You are soooo Jewish in your thinking (in contrast to Muslim) - so I mean that as high praise. In the face of clearcut Arab malice and duplicity, you search for something laudatory (whereas a Muslim searches for malicious and duplicious motives in the face of all your laudatory deeds).</p>
<p>Now, I'd be the last to argue that we shouldn't honor the good others do, but though we honor the rattle snake as a "hero" for his killing the rat, must we then conclude that the rattler had G-d's good and our blessing in mind? Do you think it possible that G-d uses even the wrath of man to praise Him (Ps 76:10), or that what others intend for evil, God uses for good (Gen 50:20)?</p>
<p>True, we can only look at outward appearances, but Hashem looks at the heart (1 Sam 16:7). To Him -- motives matter! How very paternalistic it would be of us to imagine that we are the judge whose opinion counts.</p>Mike Spengler commented on 'Unsung Swarthy Heroes'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523e3888342006-06-29T19:21:17Z2008-02-14T04:44:47ZMike SpenglerDavid- I visit treppenwitz very often these days mainly to read and digest those "inconvenient facts" you cite towards the...<p> David-</p>
<p> I visit treppenwitz very often these days mainly to read and digest those "inconvenient facts" you cite towards the beginning of your original post. </p>
<p> There are times when I question- and somewhat disagree- with points you've made. (For the time being I keep my potential responses to myself- maybe at some time I'll toss up a long-winded reply. I came close here, but not yet). </p>
<p> But none of that changes the fact (to me) that this essay by you was one of the most brilliant and insightful things I've read in a long time. By anyone...</p>
<p> Be well, be safe, and if you're in contact with the other "Neshoma Orchestra-emeritus" guys we both know, give them my best...</p>
<p> Mike S</p>Ben-David commented on 'Unsung Swarthy Heroes'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb75288332006-06-29T18:53:21Z2008-02-14T04:45:33ZBen-DavidTreppenwitz: So in fairness, what we have seen here is no more than 300 Palestinians. What we usually do with...<p>Treppenwitz:</p>
<p>So in fairness, what we have seen here is no more than 300 Palestinians. What we usually do with this information is extrapolate the words and deeds of those people onto the millions of Palestinians we don't see in order to formulate our worldview.<br />
- - - - - - - - - - - - </p>
<p>Are we allowed to judge the Palestinian people by the results of the last election?</p>
<p>By the total lack of a real grass-roots movement for peace - not coexistence, it's obscene to even consider that, but how about just peace - like the Catholic mothers marching in Ireland saying "you don't represent us with your violence"?</p>
<p>I am willing to believe that most of the Arabs in the villages around me are not political creatures.</p>
<p>I am equally willing to believe that they have as much healthy self-interest as anyone else - including a healthy sense of grievance at the new Jewish sovereignty in an area that they once considered theirs - and would be delighted to drive us into the sea.</p>
<p>I am also willing to believe that their moral compass is very different than ours.</p>
<p>Your motives are noble, but you are falling into the trap of romanticizing the Arabs - and in your own small way, infantilizing them just like the extreme lefties do.</p>Irina commented on 'Unsung Swarthy Heroes'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523e8988342006-06-29T18:10:24Z2008-02-14T04:44:50ZIrinahttp://sicat222.blogspot.comIt is indeed very true that the direct beneficiaries (as in "common people" ) probably don't and shouldn't care where...<p>It is indeed very true that the direct beneficiaries (as in "common people" ) probably don't and shouldn't care where that information comes from. However, someone somewhere should keep all those motivations in mind, because every act of informing does or at some point will have its price.</p>Scott commented on 'Unsung Swarthy Heroes'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523f0c88342006-06-29T18:01:08Z2008-02-14T04:44:55ZScotthttp://floppin-flounder.blogspot.com/I just hope the Mossad has a really creative and failsafe method of paying substantial sums to informants. Prepaid cell...<p>I just hope the Mossad has a really creative and failsafe method of paying substantial sums to informants. Prepaid cell phones and numbered accounts come to mind. I wouldn't think half a mil or so was too much to stop a suicide bomber. Cheap actually. I also like the thought of what's going through the bombers mind as he contemplates which of his 'brothers' may be the one cashing in on him.</p>Jack commented on 'Unsung Swarthy Heroes'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb43b88332006-06-29T16:27:21Z2008-02-14T04:44:54ZJackhttp://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/"Much as we would all like to believe that there is a Mossad agent hiding under every rock in Ramallah..."...<p><i>"Much as we would all like to believe that there is a Mossad agent hiding under every rock in Ramallah..."</i></p>
<p>Actually we want the Palestinians to believe this. It is good for all us.</p>westbankmama commented on 'Unsung Swarthy Heroes'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523fd988342006-06-29T14:55:31Z2008-02-14T04:45:02Zwestbankmamahttp://www.westbankblog.blogspot.comDavid, do you have concrete information about the numbers of informants vs. numbers of Mossad agents, or are you creating...<p>David, do you have concrete information about the numbers of informants vs. numbers of Mossad agents, or are you creating a scenario from wishful thinking? How many do you think really spy on their own people because they think that suicide bombing is wrong, or do it for selfish reasons? (and yes, the information is the information, and we shouldn't care how it is attained and be grateful for it. But that is a far cry from giving all of the informants a medal)</p>matlabfreak commented on 'Unsung Swarthy Heroes'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb9a988332006-06-29T14:31:44Z2008-02-14T04:45:59Zmatlabfreakhttp://matlabfreak.blogspot.comlisoosh, it was my understanding that David was intentionally pandering to the stereotype of Arabs in an attempt to contrast...<p>lisoosh, it was my understanding that David was intentionally pandering to the stereotype of Arabs in an attempt to contrast it to their 'heroism', which is decidedly not a part of the classical Israeli view.</p>
<p>Ender</p>lisoosh commented on 'Unsung Swarthy Heroes'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523f4388342006-06-29T14:21:28Z2008-02-14T04:44:56Zlisoosh"unsung swarthy heroes" Who said they were all swarthy?<p>"unsung swarthy heroes"</p>
<p>Who said they were all swarthy? </p>matlabfreak commented on 'Unsung Swarthy Heroes'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb40f88332006-06-29T13:27:08Z2008-02-14T04:44:53Zmatlabfreakhttp://matlabfreak.blogspot.comDavid- Thanks for the worthwhile post. It's been clear to me for quite some time that Shabak must have extensive...<p>David- Thanks for the worthwhile post. It's been clear to me for quite some time that Shabak must have extensive contacts in the territories, and that for <i>whatever</i> reason, they oftentimes get detailed foreknowledge of terrorist attacks. These warnings, despite the inevitable media frenzy after an attack happens, <i>are</i> instrumental in preventing untold terrorist attacks.</p>
<p>Regardless of the motivation, I can only imagine about the courage it would take for a Palestinian who knows enough to give detailed warnings about a future attack (and hence must have <i>some</i> connections) to a group who is purportedly his enemy.</p>
<p>One last bit...</p>
<p>"Much as we would all like to believe that there is a Mossad agent hiding under every rock in Ramallah..."</p>
<p>Have to say this line had me chuckling. Just the image of a Mossad agent creeping out from under a boulder in some Pink Panther-esque imitation of policework had me on the floor. *shakes head* Guess there hasn't been enough non-serious stuff in the news for the last few days... my sense of humor must need some help. *grins*</p>
<p>Ender</p>JoeSettler commented on 'Unsung Swarthy Heroes'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052400588342006-06-29T13:19:45Z2008-02-14T04:45:07ZJoeSettlerhttp://www.gmail.comI would say that either I don't get your point, or that you didn't get mine. Let me directly answer...<p>I would say that either I don't get your point, or that you didn't get mine.</p>
<p>Let me directly answer your questions:</p>
<p>Would I care about the motivations of the informer? No, I'd be happy my kid and school is safe. </p>
<p>Would I consider the informer a hero?</p>
<p>That would depend solely on his motivations - which is what my response indicated.</p>treppenwitz commented on 'Unsung Swarthy Heroes'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb3f588332006-06-29T13:08:28Z2008-02-14T04:44:52Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.comJoe Settler... Sorry. Part of being in a discussion is allowing yourself to actually listen to what the other person...<p>Joe Settler... Sorry. Part of being in a discussion is allowing yourself to actually listen to what the other person is saying. Stop trying to score points. You've obviously confused my comment board with the Jr. Varsity debating team.</p>
<p>I offered an example (one which you promptly ignored) that I had hoped would allow you to see that for the beneficiary of an informant's tips, the spy's motivation is completely irrelevant. </p>
<p>I'm not bothered that you didn't get that... but I <em>am</em> bothered that you continue to try to win a tangential point that had little to do with my post.<br />
</p>JoeSettler commented on 'Unsung Swarthy Heroes'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523f6588342006-06-29T12:57:12Z2008-02-14T04:44:57ZJoeSettlerhttp://www.gmail.comYou clearly missed the last sentence in my first comment. those that may be motivated by the concepts of good...<p><b>You clearly missed the last sentence in my first comment.</b></p>
<p><i>those that may be motivated by the concepts of good and evil, and those are the brave ones, that Israel needs to look after instead of abandoning them to their fate.</i></p>
<p>I definitely appreciate those that do it because they are good people. But to assume that the majority or even a significant number of informants are doing so out of the goodness of their heart as opposed to certain pressures being applied against them is silly (I just wanted to use that word back).</p>treppenwitz commented on 'Unsung Swarthy Heroes'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb3ec88332006-06-29T12:48:09Z2008-02-14T04:44:52Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.comJoe Settler... Now you're just being contrary (not to mention silly). In my example a person who didn't have to...<p>Joe Settler... Now you're just being contrary (not to mention silly). In my example a person who didn't have to save your kid's school from an impending attack did so. In your scenario a serial killer who may or may not have had the opportunity to harm someone you know is apprehended. </p>
<p>I asked YOU for YOUR level of appreciation to the informer. If that is too hard for you to cough up then perhaps you don't deserve to benefit from his information... regardless of the motivation that led him/her to provide it.</p>JoeSettler commented on 'Unsung Swarthy Heroes'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb47688332006-06-29T12:46:52Z2008-02-14T04:44:57ZJoeSettlerhttp://www.gmail.comJust to remind you. In your neck of the woods, around a year ago or so (right near the tunnels),...<p>Just to remind you. In your neck of the woods, around a year ago or so (right near the tunnels), a Shabbak handler went to meet his Palestinian informant.</p>
<p>The Shabbak handler was murdered - by his informant.</p>
<p>Now this informant had supplied the Shabbak with plenty of information in the past that stopped terrorist attacks. </p>
<p>Does the word 'hero' still come to mind?</p>JoeSettler commented on 'Unsung Swarthy Heroes'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb4b888332006-06-29T12:41:23Z2008-02-14T04:44:59ZJoeSettlerhttp://www.gmail.comIf an apprehended thief cuts an immunity deal with the DA and as a result a serial murderer is caught......<p>If an apprehended thief cuts an immunity deal with the DA and as a result a serial murderer is caught...</p>
<p>Is the thief the hero, or the cops that caught him and the DA that got him to talk?</p>treppenwitz commented on 'Unsung Swarthy Heroes'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523ec688342006-06-29T12:01:27Z2008-02-14T04:44:52Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.comJoe Settler... OK, let me ask you the following question: You find out that a terrorist was just apprehended a...<p>Joe Settler... OK, let me ask you the following question:</p>
<p>You find out that a terrorist was just apprehended a few blocks from your kid's school and it turns out that the school was the intended target. Do you really care whether the reasons the informer tipped off the IDF were altruistic or self-serving? </p>
<p>I'm thinking you look at your kid for the rest of your life and thank G-d that this guy stepped up and took the risk. I'm also guessing that the word 'hero' might come to mind.</p>JoeSettler commented on 'Unsung Swarthy Heroes'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523f2688342006-06-29T11:24:31Z2008-02-14T04:44:55ZJoeSettlerhttp://www.gmail.comMaybe a Palestinian collaborator is the Arab equivalent to any Israeli member of Gush Shalom . Simply willing to meet...<p>Maybe a Palestinian collaborator is the Arab equivalent to any Israeli member of Gush Shalom . Simply willing to meet the enemy and sell out their own people for a screwed up ideology.</p>
<p>(Got that out of my system).</p>
<p>As for motivations. </p>
<p>I met a couple of informants while in the army. Some of them needed money for drugs. Some were in clan wars and needed protection (yes, we do give informants guns). Some are town leaders that wanted to keep their positions of power (which, when the IDF was in charge was easy for them to arrange). Some were actually setup by the security services and warned that their 'assistance' would be publicized if they didn't help more. Some wanted family members out of jail. Some wanted to emmigrate.</p>
<p>It's just a matter of finding out what motivates someone.</p>
<p>Whereas Gush Shalom and Shalom Achshav seem to be motivated enough just hating Settlers.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Obviously there are also those that realized that life under Israel is better than life under the PA, and even those that may be motivated by the concepts of good and evil, and those are the brave ones, that Israel needs to look after instead of abandoning them to their fate.</p>