Comments on Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’TypePad2006-06-19T11:26:03ZDavid Bognerhttps://www.treppenwitz.com/tag:typepad.com,2003:https://www.treppenwitz.com/2006/06/since_you_force/comments/atom.xml/sally commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5505241e388342006-07-19T16:14:25Z2008-02-14T04:45:33Zsallyhello, Just wanted to make some remarks concerning the middle east fighting. I don't get it why. Can't they just...<p>hello, <br />
Just wanted to make some remarks concerning the middle east fighting. I don't get it why. Can't they just leave each other alone and live in peace or was this God's plan to have destruction all the time. I just don't get the mentality. It's like gangs in the U.S. fighting over terriorty. It's stupid and solves nothing. Hate breds hate makes me sad and I do pray for it to end. thanks for your time.</p>Lachlan commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb67d88332006-07-02T19:42:27Z2008-02-14T04:45:25ZLachlanhttp://mysocalledblog.comJoe, your comments are so full of BS and generalizations that I don't even KNOW where to begin. This is...<p>Joe, your comments are so full of BS and generalizations that I don't even KNOW where to begin.</p>
<p>This is probably as good a place as any: "Here's a hot tip: THERE IS NO "GAY" GENE, and almost every "gay" person with a drink or two under their belts will admit to you that they were "recruited"; that their first gay sexual experience was as an underage teenager, seduced (aka statutorily raped) by an older adult."</p>
<p>I don't know where you get your information, but to say "almost every" gay person's mirrors your statement is patently false. Since you haven't talked to every gay person on the planet (drunk or sober) the sheer statistical improbability sinks your assertion.</p>
<p>And for the sake of this argument, I'll stipulate that there is no doubt in my mind some people who end up gay have their first experiences with someone older. And for every gay person with this experience, you have a straight person whose first lover was older- maybe even "illegally" older. Hmm... now, tell me again who's more in the wrong? Oh, that's right, the gay person "recruiting" the innocent, completely-unable-to-choose-for-themselves teen or young adult. And the innocent but straight counterpart? Victim, or recipient of a "glorious rite of passage"? </p>
<p>You are deluding yourself if you think all gay people make a choice to be gay. You are also deluding yourself if you think that we are out here attemping to influence CHILDREN to be gay. There is no underground network that meets twice monthly to discuss how we can increase our ranks. There is no newsletter published weekly to announce "recruitment quotas". We live our lives, do our jobs, and breathe the air the same way you and every other straight person does.</p>
<p>Since I am guessing you are not a geneticist or God, I'll also state that you are hardly a qualified expert to say there is no biological imperative that influences sexuality. Humans are WAY too complicated for it to be just genetic or just upbringing/experience related. And again, if you think it is so simple as making a choice, then I'll repeat myself- you're deluded.</p>joe commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523de588342006-07-02T12:13:46Z2008-02-14T04:44:44Zjoe"But being gay is not a choice any more than, say, being a black left handed woman is a choice....<p>"But being gay is not a choice any more than, say, being a black left handed woman is a choice. Some people simply 'are'. "</p>
<p>This is where the premise of your article stands, AND FALLS.</p>
<p>You insult women and blacks who have struggled for centuries for equal rights denied to them because of their innateness. </p>
<p>Here's a hot tip: THERE IS NO "GAY" GENE, and almost every "gay" person with a drink or two under their belts will admit to you that they were "recruited"; that their first gay sexual experience was as an underage teenager, seduced (aka statutorily raped) by an older adult.</p>
<p>Give a rebellious teenager access to no-strings sex and faux affection by a replacement parental figure and no wonder their choice.</p>
<p>"Perhaps after seeing a 260lb. bearded drag queen kissing a body builder wearing nothing but chaps, the sight of a two guys wearing khakis and oxfords holding hands in the corner coffee shop won't seem so, well, shocking."</p>
<p>And here is your other mistake, as you didn't even realize that you "exposed" the true purpose of the parade:</p>
<p>* IT IS TO NORMALIZE AND MAKE ACCEPTABLE "GAY" (DEVIANT) BEHAVIOR.*</p>
<p>Do we need to go back to where "they" had to hide in fear of being arrested for their private CHOICE of sexuality? </p>
<p>Personally I think not. </p>
<p>Do we need their propaganda campaign* to CONVINCE OUR CHILDREN TO "EXPERIMENT" and "tolerate" all forms of deviancy and themselves become gay?</p>
<p>IS THIS THE CHOICE YOU WANT FOR YOUR CHILDREN?. If yes, possibly your genes do need to die out.</p>
<p>And before you reply "there is no gay agenda, it's just you uptight religious nutjobs..." you should all read this:</p>
<p>http://www.drjudithreisman.com/archives/2005/12/how_marketing_o.html</p>
<p>* "The gay rights marketing bible, titled "After the Ball," was authored by two very bright, Harvard-educated marketers: Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen. They lay out many versatile techniques of persuasion – all of them enormously manipulative and intimidating. Let's focus in on just two of them: "desensitization" and "jamming."</p>
<p>Basically, desensitization means if you repeat something outrageous – even something outrageously false – over and over and over again, people will gradually become less and less outraged and eventually accept it. For instance, here's what our gay marketing gurus write about desensitizing Americans about homosexuality. They say:"</p>
<p>""The main thing is to talk about gayness until the issue becomes thoroughly tiresome. Seek desensitization and nothing more. … If you can get straights to think homosexuality is just another thing – meriting no more than a shrug of the shoulders – then your battle for legal and social rights is virtually won.</p>
<p>What about "jamming"? Jamming has been called "psychological terrorism." Remember how the Soviets used to jam the signal when Radio Free Europe would broadcast behind the Iron Curtain? Today "jamming" literally means silencing your critics or opponents by attacking and intimidating them. Fair, unfair, it doesn't matter – you attack the other side any way you can to get him to shut up. American policy debate is full of jamming.""</p>
<p>Read it yourself: </p>
<p>http://clusty.com/search?query=%22After+the+Ball%2C%22+%22+Marshall+Kirk%22%22+Hunter+Madsen%22</p>
<p>And also read their first "Manual": http://www.article8.org/docs/gay_strategies/overhauling.htm</p>
<p>The Overhauling of Straight America<br />
by Marshall K. Kirk and Erastes Pill</p>
<p>The first order of business is desensitization of the American public concerning gays and gay rights. To desensitize the public is to help it view homosexuality with indifference instead of with keen emotion. Ideally, we would have straights register differences in sexual preference the way they register different tastes for ice cream or sports games: she likes strawberry and I like vanilla; he follows baseball and I follow football. No big deal.</p>
<p>"In any campaign to win over the public, gays must be cast as victims in need of protection so that straights will be inclined by reflex to assume the role of protector. ... Straight viewers must be able to identify with gays as victims. Mr. and Mrs. Public must be given no extra excuses to say, "they are not like us." </p>
<p>"...Our goal is here is twofold. First, we seek to replace the mainstream's self-righteous pride about its homophobia with shame and guilt. Second, we intend to make the antigays look so nasty that average Americans will want to dissociate themselves from such types."</p>Rahel commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb2ee88332006-06-27T09:05:02Z2008-02-14T04:44:42ZRahelhttp://profile.typekey.com/Rahel/I just had a little tiff of my own. Someone on a local e-mail list posted a message similar to...<p>I just had a little tiff of my own. Someone on a local e-mail list posted a message similar to the one you mentioned here. I protested it, suggesting that those who want to stop the parade start their own dedicated list for that purpose. (Two people wrote to me off-list to say "Right on.") Then, the original poster sent an even more offensive message to the list, this one possibly advocating violence -- all the while claiming that he/she has nothing against gay people, of course. I protested this message very strongly, but civilly. Now it seems that I've been thrown off the list without warning or explanation.</p>
<p>Tolerance? Sure, as long as you're on our side. Sigh ...<br />
</p>MP commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523fa388342006-06-27T05:13:36Z2008-02-14T04:44:59ZMPI'm actually going to be in the press corps at this event, mostly because I'm very curious to see who...<p>I'm actually going to be in the press corps at this event, mostly because I'm very curious to see who comes to an interfaith, intercultural, international GLBT conference in Jerusalem, but also because I'm interested in how religious and "progressive" people locate their ideologies and in human rights in the Middle East, so my post here probably violates all sorts of rules of jouralistic integrity, but I want both to add my voice to the roar of approval regarding this insightful and articulate column and applaud the tremendous point that the Rabbis condemned the Sodomites for inhospitality. <br />
PS I appreciate any leads, interviews, books, etc. I just finished Steven Greenberg's Wrestling with God and Man, which I thought largely unconvincing but a great start to a conversation about human dignity within a religoius framework.</p>Johnwillslloyd commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052407a88342006-06-27T02:24:42Z2008-02-14T04:45:14ZJohnwillslloydhttp://johnl.wordpress.comThank you.<p>Thank you. </p>Joanne commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523f7688342006-06-25T05:25:29Z2008-02-14T04:44:58ZJoanneI am also somewhat repulsed by the idea of gay sex, but I don't think that should count for much....<p>I am also somewhat repulsed by the idea of gay sex, but I don't think that should count for much. I think we shouldn't frown on sex that doesn't appeal to us or that repulses us. I'm repulsed by the idea of old people having sex, but that shouldn't be illegal. Same with sex between fat people or hairy people. Hell, I'm repulsed by the idea of sex between my parents. But...well, you get the picture.</p>
<p>As for the outrageous displays during the parades, I'm ambivalent about that. What are they trying to accomplish with these antics. Is it for the titillation or nudge-nudge wink-wink amusement of gays themselves? Is it to create an in-your-face statement to straights? Or is it to accustom the wider world to gayness in all its versions, so that straights get past the revulsion? I don't know.</p>
<p>But I think such displays could be counter-productive. In fact, it might be a better idea for straight people to see a parade with lots and lots of gay guys in khakis and oxfords, or losts of soldiers and officers in uniform (if that doesn't get them into trouble), or lots of rabbis, doctors, or whatever. Then they'll see gays as just other human beings and not freaks. </p>
<p>On the one hand, tolerance of gays shouldn't only exist to the extent that they look and behave like the rest of society. On the other, parades with outlandish and freaky displays may only reinforce anti-gay stereotypes. </p>
<p>If gay participants want to use the parade to celebrate among themselves and titillate each other or express defiance with colorful displays, that's one thing. But if they want to use the parade to communicate with the rest of society, they may want to re-think their approach.</p>Andy Levy-Stevenson commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523ea788342006-06-25T04:07:34Z2008-02-14T04:44:51ZAndy Levy-StevensonJerusalem has a spirituality and beauty that touches almost anyone who lives or visits her. If the organizers of the...<p><i>Jerusalem has a spirituality and beauty that touches almost anyone who lives or visits her. If the organizers of the parade want it in Jerusalem, I belief, the parade should reflect that and respect it.</i></p>
<p>Years ago, my wife and I went to the Gay Pride parade in Minneapolis with our then very young kids. Mainly as a statement of general support; we weren't members of PFLAG, didn't have close friends marching. If I remember correctly, the Quilt Project had just been displayed in the Twin Cities, so the whole issue was very top-of-mind for us.</p>
<p>It was great fun, but we didn't go in subsequent years because we didn't want to deal with explaining some of the more flamboyant behaviours to our children.</p>
<p>Like David, I've been getting emails demanding that I express my condemnation of the Jerusalem parade, and like David I'm feeling very contrarian. I know that specific acts of homosexual sex are against halacha; and so I don't do them. But I'm buggered if I'm going to join a crowd of bigots and homophobes to try and curtail other people's civil rights.</p>
<p>For the last week or so I've been wondering whether our family should take part in the march. On one hand I feel we ought to; on the other, I don't want to unnecessarily expose my kids to sexual politics, and PDAs of any inclination.</p>
<p>I'd feel more comfortable going as part of a bigger group, whether something like PFLAG or something more ad-hoc. And of course, the more of us non-flamboyant types who turn up in khakis and sandals, the more "tzniut" the whole march becomes. Is anyone else considering attending?</p>
<p>(* Perhaps buggered was an unfortunate choice of term, but it just sounded right.)</p>Dina commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523ee688342006-06-23T07:31:46Z2008-02-14T04:44:53ZDinaWhat is God's view on homosexuality? "If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both...<p>What is God's view on homosexuality? </p>
<p>"If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."<br />
(Lev.20:13)</p>
<p>Is God so cruel that he would create this abomination in a little baby, and then condemn him for it when he grew up?</p>
<p>Never. People are not born this way. </p>
<p>"God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions." (Ecclesiastes 7:29)</p>
<p>Spanish translation: "God made man perfect, but he has brought against himself many charges." </p>
<p>The planned parade in the streets of Jerusalem is nothing but a clenched fist in the face of the Almighty. </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p><br />
</p>treppenwitz commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523e0388342006-06-22T11:55:15Z2008-02-14T04:44:45Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.comBen-David... You seem to object to Gays being treated equally under the law because they are transgressing a religious statute...<p></p>
<p>Ben-David... You seem to object to Gays being treated equally under the law because they are transgressing a religious statute and because you perceive them to be doing something unnatural and somehow damaging to society as a whole. Are you equally against equal rights under the law for people who don't marry and simply live together? Are you for denying civil rights to people who have multiple sexual partners? Does it seem unreasonable to you that someone born with the heterosexual appetites you find excessive or immoral should be allowed to enjoy equal protection under the law of the state? My problem with your comments is that you are starting from a flawed assumption that homosexuality a) somehow adversely affects you and society; b) does damage to those who practice it or witness it being practiced; c) steals resources from society that you feel should be allocated differently; and d) should be treated like a contagious disease. Slavery was once also a cornerstone of society and society came to realize that it was wrong. Nobody is asking you to embrace this lifestyle for yourself or your children. You are simply being asked to finally acknowledge that there is no compelling reason why your religious beliefs and values should be allowed to intrude upon the legal rights and civil protections of people who don't share them.</p>
<p>Wogo... You're singin' my song. :-)</p>
<p>Yael... Yet each time you come to Beer Sheva you seem to avoid me like the plague! ;-) Seriously, next time you come down please let me know. I'll even come over to the University to have that cup of coffee if you can't get away for more than a few minutes.</p>
<p>NR Stark... Wait a sec... I'm confused. They (meaning gays) don't respect your sensibilities? According to you that makes them selfish, and in fact spits on your religious beliefs. What about your refusal to respect something even more tangible and measurable than sensibilities: civil rights under the law? Doesn't that make you just a teensy bit selfish. You live in a multi-cultural liberal democracy yet you feel that because your religious beliefs call the act of two men having sex an abomination, that this gives you the right to withhold a slew of basic human, civil and legal rights/protections under secular law? Thank you for offering such an enlightened comment. </p>NR Stark commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb2b988332006-06-22T02:29:50Z2008-02-14T04:44:41ZNR StarkWould the gay pride parade be any less prideful outside of Jerusalem? I can't support people who don't respect me...<p>Would the gay pride parade be any less prideful outside of Jerusalem? I can't support people who don't respect me and my sensibilites because of their selfish need to spit on my religious beliefs. The homosexuals who want to march in Jerusalem can go to hell. And if I'm a hypocrite, then so was Pinchas when he slew Zimri, and so were the Jews who stood up to the Hellenists, and the Romans, and every other decadent society that ever reared its head. And I'm proud of it.</p>Yael commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb42588332006-06-22T00:20:05Z2008-02-14T04:44:54ZYaelhttp://olehgirl.blogspot.comDavid I really do not have words to express the incredible respect I have for you after reading this post....<p>David I really do not have words to express the incredible respect I have for you after reading this post. I respected you before and thought that you were kewl and all but really, wow. </p>
<p>Having grown up with 3 gay uncles (from both sides of the family) it has long been clear to me that they just "are" --they are born that way just as I was born with blue eyes, light skin, and female. </p>
<p>Your post filled my heart with gratitude. Thank you.</p>wogo commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523d1988342006-06-21T15:20:46Z2008-02-14T04:44:37Zwogo"near and dear" indeed... Thank you for a thought-provoking post and thank you all for a (relatively) civil discussion. While...<p>"near and dear" indeed...</p>
<p>Thank you for a thought-provoking post and thank you all for a (relatively) civil discussion. While I doubt any minds were changed, I personally gained much from the give-and-take.</p>
<p>There is much more to be said here but I think this thread has run its course...</p>
<p>On to bigger and better things -- like how we can get Trep into the Keneset:</p>
<p>You take one down..." ♪</p>Ben-David commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523f1d88342006-06-21T15:16:53Z2008-02-14T04:44:55ZBen-DavidIf you want to deny someone basic rights under the law then the burden is on you to prove why...<p>If you want to deny someone basic rights under the law then the burden is on you to prove why it is both necessary and legal.<br />
- - - - - - - - - - - -<br />
Huh?</p>
<p>A vanishingly small minority is trying to impose a far-reaching change to a major cornerstone of society.</p>
<p>With NO precedent for such change in all of human history.</p>
<p>With NO scientific proof (you yourself have backtracked on your certainty that gays are "born that way" - and not addressed the evidence of gay behavior).</p>
<p>Large parts of their argument is ill-thought out victimology politics.</p>
<p>And the burden of proof is on... who?</p>
<p>Sorry, dolling - the burden of proof is always upon the innovators.</p>
<p>How nice and smooth - and circular: we start out assuming that the claims of the gay-rights activists are true - that this is really an issue of equal representation before the law - and wind up with a conclusion that reinforces the starting assumption.</p>
<p>Talk about an echo chamber.</p>
<p>And the majority of Americans who disagree - who are quickly (and easily) passing laws to protect themselves from the same judicial fiat that imposed this parade on Jerusalem - well, we'll just slap a label on them (hurtful, homophobic). No need to actually ANSWER their critiques, or CONVINCE anyone.</p>
<p>It's so obvious that we're the right, and CARING ones.</p>
<p>And again - what should a religious Jew's role be in this moment of cultural debate?</p>treppenwitz commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523e0b88342006-06-21T13:28:50Z2008-02-14T04:44:45Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.comLisa... You'd think they'd put up sings or something as you approach the track (Commercial Street). :-) Dor... Neanderthals sitting...<p>Lisa... You'd think they'd put up sings or something as you approach the track (Commercial Street). :-)</p>
<p>Dor... Neanderthals sitting around the campfire telling ghost stories to other frightened savages.</p>
<p>Wogo... Whether one is born that way or develops a certain way because of external causes... or perhaps a kind of time-release inherited trait is really not the point. The point remains that homosexuals can't help being the way they are and there is no compelling legal reason to deny them the same rights as the rest of the population.</p>
<p>Jack... His 'research' doesn't sound particularly scientific to me... particularly the lack of a control group.</p>
<p>Yonah... You hit on the one area where religion might bump up against the rest of the world. Yes, Jewish law does seem to obligate me to tell a fellow Jew not to transgress a religious prohibition if I can reasonably assume my admonition might be heeded. But that's a big 'if' and certainly wouldn't apply to this community where free will is not an option. The truth is, halacha allows a lot of lot of latitude about when certain things are legally assumed to have occurred. For instance on your wife's ketubah she is called a virgin. She was not required to bring proof of this and even if someone knew this not to be the case they would be prohibited from coming forward on their own and giving testimony against her. In fact, for her to be called anything but a virgin on her ketubah, she would either have to have been a) previously married; or b) witnessed by two kosher 'edim' (at the same time) having sex. Even if your wife came forward of her own volition and said she was not a virgin her testimony would not be valid. I don't see why the same assumptions aren't extended to the gay community. </p>
<p>Avishem... I'm not sure how comfortable I am wearing the mantle 'queer radical'... but thanks. I think. :-) and thanks for the insights.</p>
<p>Psychotoddler... Let me ask you this: Do you think you would feel the same today about gays if groups like ACT-UP had not spent several decades forcing the hetero public to confront the existence of the gay community and it's needs/rights? I ask because nearly all of their activism was more 'in-your-face' than anything going on in this parade. Social change does not happen gently.</p>
<p>Doctor Bean... I disagree. Perhaps minds weren't changed, but I am sure much was learned. Thank you for your contributions to this education process.</p>
<p>Noodles... I can neither confirm nor deny...</p>
<p>Katherine... Thank you.</p>
<p>Irina... Most social activism misrepresents the way the participants act in 'real life'. As I told Pyschotoddler; Social change does not happen gently.</p>
<p>Scott... Saying the world is going to hell in a hand-basket is not a valid reason to deny one segment of society its legal rights. You want to legislate morality? Good luck with that, but do it fairly and across the board.</p>
<p>Warren... There you go again equating something that is not contagious or debilitating (or in any way a threat to society) to a disease that is all of those things. Please compare apples to apples.</p>
<p>xiaolongnu... SO many of the people espousing these very strong anti-gay feelings are the children and grandchildren of people who were forced to hide who they were from mainstream society. I think goldfish have longer memories than some of us.</p>
<p>ravaj... Thank you for that. I knew I wasn't going to change any minds with this post. But an open exchange of ideas is often a good first step.</p>
<p>Ben-David... I am not going to play that game (you go first... no, you go first!). If you want to deny someone basic rights under the law then the burden is on you to prove why it is both necessary and legal. This idea of trying to force someone to provide a positive justification for their right to exist is eerily like the argument I hear from Israel/Jew haters. I would think you'd be tired enough of that tactic to not emply it on others. If you feel you have scientific proof (double blind studies with authentic controls) then bring it on. Otherwise you are just blowing smoke and selling fear. Just because something is near and dear to your heart does not make it a 'significant issue'.</p>Ben-David commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb25b88332006-06-21T12:46:32Z2008-02-14T04:44:37ZBen-DavidDavid wrote: I'm afraid I'm going to have to play the 'liar, liar pants on fire' card - - -...<p>David wrote:<br />
I'm afraid I'm going to have to play the 'liar, liar pants on fire' card <br />
- - - - - - - - - - </p>
<p>... yes, that's how you've been responding to those who disagree with you on this post - disappointingly out of character, considering how observant you are of the labels and stereotypes that distort many other issues...</p>
<p>Regarding proof: <br />
Let's make a deal - five minutes after you give scientific proof for the assertion that homosexuals are born that way (and the additional non-sequitir that this somehow makes it unimpeachably normal)</p>
<p>- I'll cite my evidence that pathological behaviors are the norm in the gay world - even among the latest crop of gays raised in swingingly open Europe.</p>
<p>Just to show my (hateful, phobic, chauvinist) heart's in the right place, I'll start the ball rolling with these reports out of Holland:</p>
<p>http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030711-121254-3711r.htm</p>
<p>http://www.ajph.org/cgi/content/abstract/96/6/1119</p>
<p>http://www.cwfa.org/articles/172/CFI/cfreport/index.htm</p>
<p>Regarding racism and sexism:<br />
These were realized to be evils precisely because they judge people by something other than their actions.</p>
<p>In contrast, we judge schizophrenia - and until recently, homosexuality - to be a maladaptation because of the behaviors we see.</p>
<p>A primitive Amazon clan may crown the schizophrenic as their shaman or prophet, but in our culture we make a <br />
VALUES-BASED JUDGEMENT that such a person is ill.</p>
<p>That was my point in citing the wide cross-cultural consensus about homosexuality - it seems that people of all different value systems still found something not normal about exclusive homosexuality - even in the Good Old Days of morality-dulling slavery and concubinage.</p>
<p>Which brings us to the most interesting - and important - of my points, which you ignored completely:</p>
<p>Torah Judaism provides a stable scale of<br />
<><br />
VALUES with which to<br />
<><br />
JUDGE reality and people's behavior.</p>
<p>The prohibition on homosexual acts is one facet of a cogent view of human sexuality that links commitment and intimacy with physical sex.</p>
<p>Why is it off limits to take the moral measure of homosexuality - based on what we know about the "gay lifestyle" - the thriving "communities" whose major institutions are baths, bars, and bookstores with backrooms for anonymous groping?</p>
<p>We point out that this behavior would still be antithetical to Torah<br />
<>><br />
VALUES even if the sexual couplings were male-to-female.</p>
<p>So: </p>
<p>1) Could you explain exactly when and where Torah values can be suspended in favor of modern Western hedonism?</p>
<p>2) How does the "born that way" argument differ from modern "scientific" assertions that our chimpanzee ancestors were not monogamous, and therefore our society's demand for fidelity in marriage is "unnatural"?</p>
<p>In fact, this line of thinking has already affected the West's thinking about marriage, and severely reduced the stigma of divorce </p>
<p>- do you think this is positive? You know, more "natural"?</p>
<p>I have raised several significant issues, which deserve to be addressed. I judge homosexuals the same way I judge everyone - by what I see them do.</p>
<p>If the only reply you can muster is bluster about "homophobia" please spare me - and your own reputation for thoughtfulness.</p>ravaj commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb28c88332006-06-21T06:04:33Z2008-02-14T04:44:39Zravajhttp://ravaj.blogspot.com/thank you david for your posts on this subject. while few people will change the mindset with which they entered...<p>thank you david for your posts on this subject. while few people will change the mindset with which they entered this discussion, i have still found this page of comments to be a gift. it has reminded me not to stereotype all more religiously conservative people as automatically being so with everything they believe.</p>
<p>as for me - utterly queer, definitely hard-wired thus, and completely accepting that i am made in god's image exactly as i am. i look to torah to teach me how to be a mensch and develop positive relationships with my self, other humans, other living creatures, the earth and adonai. i begin with hillel's "what is hateful to you do not do to others - that is the whole torah, all the rest is commentary " sorry for the platitude, but hate is hateful.</p>xiaolongnu commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052417588342006-06-20T22:06:26Z2008-02-14T04:45:28ZxiaolongnuIn my humble opinion, the worst sort of hypocrisy is to 'magnanimously' proclaim that you support a person's right to...<p><i>In my humble opinion, the worst sort of hypocrisy is to 'magnanimously' proclaim that you support a person's right to live however they choose... yet demand that they not do so where you can see them.</i></p>
<p>Well said and very important. There's a good recent book on this subject, "Covering: The Hidden Assault on our Civil Rights" by Kenji Yoshino. Briefly, he argues that being forced to conceal one's difference is as harmful as being overtly penalized for it. The discussion talks about gay rights, but also about racial and ethnic discrimination and gender discrimination. </p>Warren commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb34188332006-06-20T19:30:56Z2008-02-14T04:44:46ZWarrenTrepp: My argument was about the irrelevancy of innateness to acceptability. You were distracted by the examples I gave. Like...<p>Trepp:<br />
My argument was about the irrelevancy of innateness to acceptability. You were distracted by the examples I gave. Like I said:<br />
<blockquote><br />
But to point out that the argument around the idea of "Innate from the Creator" is not a good argument.<br />
</blockquote></p>
<p>The point you made that I disagreed with was your idea that something that already exists should not be changed. You probably don't believe that; But you did write essentially the same thing when you said that we shouldn't be against homosexuality because it was created by God. So was polio.<br />
</p>Scott commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523b6588342006-06-20T19:01:52Z2008-02-14T04:44:22ZScottI would just like to emphasize a pivotal point I included in my post. More learned and talented folks than...<p>I would just like to emphasize a pivotal point I included in my post. More learned and talented folks than I could write large books ... collections of books ... on this point.</p>
<p>Our society is pathologically over-sexed. Homosexual society is just one sharp point of a whole field of punji sticks comprising human sexuality.</p>
<p>I think the Torah tries very hard to tell us that human sexuality should be constrained by a very tight set of moral values. When it is allowed to spin out of control we suffer huge consequences.</p>
<p>Well it's way way out of it's natural orbit in our world and it will not be brought back into proper allignment without cataclysmic upheaval and rebuilding from the ground up.</p>
<p>If G-d allows us go much further along our own path like we now are ... He will owe Sodom and Gomorah an apology. That's an old joke but we won't be laughing when we are reigned in.</p>Irina commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523f6388342006-06-20T18:20:33Z2008-02-14T04:44:57ZIrinahttp://sicat222.blogspot.comHmm, I see your point about shock value... but I also see that it can also do more harm than...<p>Hmm, I see your point about shock value... but I also see that it can also do more harm than good. Think about it: this parade misrepresents the actual behavior of most homosexuals. We know that. But many people don't tend to associate with homosexuals enough to know the difference - so the only real image of homosexuals that they will get is what they see at the parade. That type of show will reinforce stereotypes and create new fears, rather than desensitize people to regular homosexual behavior. Next time they'll see a gay couple, the first thing that'll come to their mind is not how normal they are, not that they are a family - but that they are promiscuous and repulsive, just like the folks they saw at the parade. Perhaps the shock effect will bring about some legislative changes - but I think it will also create a great deal more of hidden hostility. I think that civil rights for any group is a very sensitive issue, and should be addressed most certainly - but in an equally sensitive way, otherwise, in the long run, it will only backfire. </p>Katherine commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5505241b788342006-06-20T17:27:40Z2008-02-14T04:45:31ZKatherinegosh too tired to read through all the comments, just wanted to say well put. thank you!<p>gosh too tired to read through all the comments, just wanted to say well put. thank you!</p>Noodles commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523e4d88342006-06-20T16:41:26Z2008-02-14T04:44:47ZNoodlesHey, that Yonah dude must be a lawyer, huh? : )<p>Hey, that Yonah dude must be a lawyer, huh?</p>
<p>: )</p>Doctor Bean commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb27988332006-06-20T16:11:39Z2008-02-14T04:44:38ZDoctor BeanDavid: For the record, my comments were off topic. I was hoping to be tangential to try to see if...<p>David: For the record, my comments were off topic. I was hoping to be tangential to try to see if I could budge anyone to the middle. I'm honestly sorry I tried. So many different positions were articulated well on this thread, and I don't really think anyone learned a thing or changed their mind even in the smallest way. Catch ya' on another thread.</p>
<p>Lisoosh: OK. Be well.</p>psychotoddler commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523c3688342006-06-20T14:44:13Z2008-02-14T04:44:29Zpsychotoddlerhttp://psychotoddler.blogspot.comDavid, I don't agree with your contention that purposely making the parade shocking and offensive is the best way to...<p>David, I don't agree with your contention that purposely making the parade shocking and offensive is the best way to make make more benign behavior seem inoffensive.</p>
<p>I think it is more likely to polarize the people, make them think they were right all along (whatever side they took in the debate), and scare away any moderates.</p>Avishem commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb37988332006-06-20T14:42:02Z2008-02-14T04:44:47ZAvishemDude, Trep, you're way more of a queer radical than I am, and I'm actually gay! Personally, I would prefer...<p>Dude, Trep, you're way more of a queer radical than I am, and I'm actually gay!</p>
<p>Personally, I would prefer the WorldPride event in Jerusalem to be as "family-friendly" as possible. So, festival atmosphere Yes! but groping 'leather-daddies' and 'drag queens' No!</p>
<p>It's Yerushalayim, and part of the message of the event is that God DID create LGBT folks just like everybody else, and that we have the same access to kedusha as all the heteros out there. It's not kefira to point out that Chazal's knowledge of sexuality, while greatly insightful when it comes to straight people, can have omissions and flaws, just like Chazal's understanding of astronomy, when it comes to sexual minorities.</p>
<p>As for those folks who don't believe most LGBT'ers are hard-wired that way: Dude. Try to change us. Sometimes, you end up killing the person you try. Usually, you just make their lives (and the lives of anyone close to them) hell.</p>
<p>For the folks who don't see why heterosexuality and non-heterosexuality are equally questionable: If science can teach me about the development of a typical eyeball, as well as about the development of blinder and sharper eyeballs, then it certainly can study the origins of heterosexuality in individuals. It's no more a given, psycho-genetically, for an individual to be straight (like the majority) than for an individual to have 20/20 eyesight (like the majority).</p>
<p>Two more admonishments to the kahal:</p>
<p>1. Don't judge another person until you've stood in their place. Many of you haven't even tried. Try to imagine what it's like growing up, figuring out your gender/sexuality doesn't match with anything you know, that your communities and religious leaders who you beleive in talk about people like you as if they're animals, while you're trying to be "normal" but always failing. Etc. The story's always a little different, but they're generally the same. Unlike the "mental disorders" we're being compared to, LGBT folks are completely capable of living happy, wholesome, healthy lives with yiddishkeit and kedusha in their home, maybe some kids as well. Think about it hard. What's different, other than the sex/gender of one of the parents?</p>
<p>2. The only Torah issur involved in the entire issue of homosexuality is male-male anal intercourse. That's always been the definition of "mishkav zachar". *Everything else*, including all lesbian acts, are Rabbinic enactments to guard against violation of the issur deOraita, or they fall under pritsut or something similar. You want to tell me that it's okay to terrorize human beings and demonize them for breaking the equivalent of Muktzeh on Shabbos?? Like Trep said, maybe you should concentrate on real predators, and not people who just want to be left alone to be in a fulfilling family relationship.</p>
<p>Thanks Trep for standing up for me and other Jews like me, yishar kochecha.</p>
<p>PS: I'm left-handed too. Go figure.</p>lisoosh commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523dda88342006-06-20T14:41:19Z2008-02-14T04:44:43ZlisooshDr. Bean - Clarification accepted and understood. I think I should clarify something too. I'm not immune from judgement and...<p>Dr. Bean - </p>
<p>Clarification accepted and understood.</p>
<p>I think I should clarify something too. I'm not immune from judgement and nor do I claim to be. I think that excessively promiscuous behaviour is dangerous and irresponsible. Rape is abhorrent and pedophilia is vile, abusive and sickening. I'm certainly not going to defend behaviour that leads to the pain and humiliation of an innocent party. I can't stop people for having those urges and thinking isn't illegal, but acting out on them and hurting people certainly is, and should be. I just wanted your definition of "better". You could say that hetero relations are "better" than homosexual relations from the position of procreation because barring outside assistance or artificial means it would be impossible but i think the definition "from the position of procreation" needs to be inserted.<br />
As to sexual relations between consenting adults behind closed doors- as long as no innocent is being hurt, I don't care. Nor do I care which is "better", nor do I think it is possible to judge in an impartial manner.<br />
</p>yonah commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523d1a88342006-06-20T13:52:06Z2008-02-14T04:44:37ZyonahI'm a rare double-commenter, but please indulge me this reply. You wrote that "so long as these things haven't come...<p>I'm a rare double-commenter, but please indulge me this reply.</p>
<p>You wrote that "so long as these things haven't come to pass...I have no right to...tell any of G-d's creations (meaning Jews here, I assume) that they can't violate a Torah law."</p>
<p>(Side point - fair to assume that if those "things" did come to pass, you would change your tune?)</p>
<p>Can you explain if this decision to refrain is a personal choice or a generic statement that you believe should be applicable to all of us? I ask because the Torah (Kedoshim, 19:17) does lay the foundation for this exact action as one of the 613 Biblical commandments. As always, the discourse on how to do so and the general process is the subject of tremendous debate. This debate often centers around the sensitivities required when rebuking another since if it is not done carefully the result can be tragic. In fact, it is genrally understood that if the one being rebuked is unlikely to listen it is preferable not to do so. What is also scrutinized is the second half of the verse, which lays blame for the continued sins on those who choose not to rebuke (again, stressing only when appropriate).</p>
<p>What we do know is that rebuking is not a law set aside for only the wise and the sage, or only at a time when we have a Temple. It is an "everyperson's" law, and people should not shy away by saying "Hey, who am I to tell someone right and wrong, I myself am no better," or something along those lines. Yes, it is natural for us to think like this, but at its core the Torah hopes that we can be above the "glass houses/throw stones" cliche in service of the greater good.</p>
<p>I spent some time today reading a few interesting online articles on the topic of this particular Mitzva, including one by the Chief Rabbi of your city, Efrat. If you'd like to explore it let me know offline. It may not immediately change your behavior, but it may change your philosophy and loosen you up a bit when it comes to how you perceive Jews advising other Jews ("meddling" as some think) when done in an appropriate manner.</p>Jack commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb6bb88332006-06-20T13:33:45Z2008-02-14T04:45:28ZJackhttp://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/Try and have a happy well adjusted marriage when you've had a couple hundred sexual partners before you get married.(I...<p><i>Try and have a happy well adjusted marriage when you've had a couple hundred sexual partners before you get married.(I assure you it sucks ) </i></p>
<p>Who knew that you had so much in common with Wilt Chamberlain.</p>wogo commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb53a88332006-06-20T13:24:26Z2008-02-14T04:45:07ZwogoTrep: It's a bit late to be jumping in here, but one issue has been bugging me from the very...<p>Trep: It's a bit late to be jumping in here, but one issue has been bugging me from the very start and still hasn't managed to go away:</p>
<p>You keep insisting that sexual orientation is an innate condition that we are born with and can't do anything about (like skin color). The only proof you've brought (IIRC) is that you've always known that you like girls.</p>
<p>For one thing, your personal awareness of your own heterosexuality is no proof that it is something you were born with. Any number of factors could have influenced you between the moment of birth and the moment of the awareness that boys and girls were different and that you preferred girls.</p>
<p>Secondly, even if you yourself were born straight, that fact in itself has no bearing on the rest of the population of the world.</p>
<p>Even after numerous studies, we still don't know what "causes" homosexuality. There is no compelling evidence in any direction to prove (or disprove) that its source is genetic or chemical or developmental or behavioral or ???</p>
<p>Without getting into the whole right-wrong thing, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on this particular issue.</p>Dor commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb29688332006-06-20T13:19:37Z2008-02-14T04:44:39ZDorSome of the responders seem to know a lot about gays, now and in history, their deformed psychology, and the...<p>Some of the responders seem to know a lot about gays, now and in history, their deformed psychology, and the serious danger they pose to civilization as we know it. It's pathetic... I am a GAY man, living in Jerusalem with my GAY partner, working in a normal job, running a totally unexciting life. Not raping children. Not sleeping with 200 people. Just a guy. And I want to be able to say that without feeling shamed. Without those crazy fanatics telling me who I am and why I am such a pervert. Me, and thousands like me, will be marching in Jerusalem this August. Thank you David for your post!</p>lisa commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523ee188342006-06-20T12:40:08Z2008-02-14T04:44:53Zlisahttp://weese.blogspot.comsort of David... altho I would not 'wander' into a racetrack because I know there would be racecars there. :o)<p>sort of David... altho I would not 'wander' into a racetrack because I know there would be racecars there.<br />
:o)</p>treppenwitz commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb1f288332006-06-20T12:32:40Z2008-02-14T04:44:34Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.comBen-David... I usually enjoy your comments. And while I don't think we see eye-to-eye on many issues I usually respect...<p>Ben-David... I usually enjoy your comments. And while I don't think we see eye-to-eye on many issues I usually respect the way you formulate and present your opinions. However this comment was just begging to be fisked (particularly in light of your calling my earlier responses to tangential/unrelated issues 'limp). So let's go straight to it, shall we?:</p>
<p>1. Targeting: Yes, targeting Jerusalem was quite deliberate (and that was the correct word). As I've said several times already. If shock is your goal then going to a place where people are not going to be shocked by gays groping each other in public is not a very smart tactic.</p>
<p>2. [insert long list of chronic and/or fatal diseases here]: I prefer my choice of naturally occurring conditions: black, left handed, etc. If you must impose value on the issue, let's also add albinos and hair lips. These work better according to your model because they occur naturally in nature and are often disturbing for people to look at. However, your list, well, sucks... mostly because we have some idea why most of those conditions occur... and there are treatments (of varying effectiveness) for most of them. Some loony evangelical sects aside, you have about as much chance of 'curing' a homosexual as you do of curing an albino (and yes, I know you can surgically address most hair lips).<br />
Intervention: Your use of parents refusing medical intervention for their autistic children is just silly. I tiny minority of parents follow this bizarre practice and if medical intervention was available for homosexuality I imagine many people would explore that route. But since it isn't, you are guilty of using a completely fallacious (no, not fellatio-us) argument.<br />
Normal: What do you care if it is called normal or not. The people who are born gay are entitled to live a normal life and should not be forced to live in a legal limbo because of how they were created. If they were catchy I could see imposing a quarantine... but any attempt to block their right to live with whom they want, how they want is simply homophobic.<br />
"<em>Homosexuality has been viewed as abnormal and maladapted in almost every major human society in history"</em> And your point is? Almost every society on earth once though that slavery, public floggings and capital punishment were okeydokey. Societies mature and learn things. You should also.<br />
" Are those the clinical facts? Are you sure? I'm afraid I'm going to have to play the 'liar, liar pants on fire' card if you don't come up with a link to a respected medical journal that has documented this behavior exclusively in homosexuals using a double blind statistical study. The kind of homophobic blood libel you just spouted is why many bigots still equate homosexuality with pedophilia. The fact that you mention some vague 'evidence' from Scandinavia is actually quite rich since Scandinavia is one of the more, permissive/promiscuous cultures on the planet when it comes to sex outside of marriage.<br />
Unchosen: I think the burden is on society to demonstrate why people born with any differences should not receive equal treatment under civil law. You don't want them in your church or synagogue? That's your call. But if they want to be the legal heirs to each other's estates or be able to sign a DNR when a loved one is in a coma, who the hell are you to hoard these rights for yourself and deny them to others? We're not talking about affirmative action or some special scholarship program that will deny you or anyone else anything. The rights the want (and deserve) do not take any resources from another living soul.<br />
Pederast: Oh goody, I thought for a moment I had jumped the gun by invoking the homo=pedophile card against you, but you arrived right on schedule. Adults who have sex with children are criminals and should be shunned and punished by society. I think all but a statistically insignificant number of homosexuals would agree with that statement. The rights that gays are fighting for are to allow consenting adults do as they wish with full protection and rights under the law. Any group advocating sex with children is openly in favor of a practice that preys on the must vulnerable segment of society. They should be locked away forever.<br />
Torah's bailiwick: Again you seem confused about whether we live in a theocracy or a liberal democracy. Because if I've gotten that one wrong I may have to take my rebellious son out to the edge of town and let the village elders stone him to death. </p>
<p><br />
Rahel... Please see Ben-David's comment for your daily dose of homophobia/pedophilia libel.</p>
<p>Alice... thanks, I appreciate the fact that somebody thinks I defy labels. :-)</p>
<p>ck... Oh great. no good deed goes unpunished. :-)</p>ck commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb1f488332006-06-20T12:30:17Z2008-02-14T04:44:34Zckhttp://www.jewlicious.comGood post! I really can't say that enough. I'll have to let the folks over at Jewlicious know about this...<p>Good post! I really can't say that enough. I'll have to let the folks over at Jewlicious know about this ...<br />
</p>Alice commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb2a688332006-06-20T12:26:26Z2008-02-14T04:44:40ZAliceI find it pretty impossible to label David B. as PC. I mean you know you are doing something right...<p>I find it pretty impossible to label David B. as PC. I mean you know you are doing something right when half the world would call you a gun toting, radical religious nut, conservative for moving your family to Israel. And the other half labels you as a PC liberal who advocates flushing our morals. </p>
<p>Bravo David!</p>
<p>No one really knows where gay feelings come from. </p>
<p>Many many many gay people try super hard to live hetero lives and end up feeling suicidal, tortured, and full of self loathing. </p>
<p>Gays are largely hated because their situation, however it comes about, is stomach turning for people to think about if they don't swing that way. It's often a visceral response that people try to disguise as moral repulsion, a moral repulsion they don't apply fairly across the board. Hence the big gay parade. Plus gay people just love a parade. : ) </p>
<p>Gay teenagers kill themselves at a higher rate than non gays because they try so hard to not be gay, often feel like loathsome 'sinners', and just don't want to be hated. (Or hung by the neck until dead, which is how they handle gays in places really really close to Israel.)</p>
<p>As a religious person, I feel a tremendous amount of compassion for people trapped in this situation. <br />
</p>Rahel commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb2c988332006-06-20T11:51:08Z2008-02-14T04:44:41ZRahelhttp://profile.typekey.com/Rahel/David, wonderful post. I almost wish that this person, whoever he is, had considered my blog important enough for such...<p>David, wonderful post. I almost wish that this person, whoever he is, had considered my blog important enough for such a letter, which I could then have torn apart ... but I would not have done it nearly as well as you did. (Or, given the organization to which he belongs, perhaps he noticed that I belong to another group whose activities he would prefer not to see and whose rights he would prefer not to admit; recently I've come to believe that some people would rather see a group of women rob a bank than pray together.)</p>
<p>A side note (or maybe not): I am really tired of the false equation that people make between homosexuality and sexual abuse. Last year I saw posters against the parade with slogans reading things like, "Mommy, protect me from these people!" Funny ... the gay and lesbian people I know would never commit such a crime -- and the creeps who groped me on the bus at various times were not lesbians. But I suppose that any means, however hypocritical, are within bounds for the sake of the cause.</p>Ben-David commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb0fd88332006-06-20T11:29:19Z2008-02-14T04:44:25ZBen-DavidTrepp, it's been interesting - and disappointing - to see your, uh, limp responses to the several people who have...<p>Trepp, it's been interesting - and disappointing - to see your, uh, limp responses to the several people who have tried to challenge the politically correct views.</p>
<p>And you seem to have totally ignored the very valid claim that the targeting of Jerusalem, like the purposeful targeting of Rome a few years ago, is an act of political provocation and disrespect for other views - typical of a certain self-righteous political correctness that blithely imposes its own will with an iron fist (in the name of "diversity" of course... of course...)</p>
<p>Let's try it this way:</p>
<p>Diabetes<br />
BiPolar Disorder<br />
Cancer<br />
Autism<br />
Depression<br />
Schizophrenia<br />
Alchoholism</p>
<p>... and a host of other ailments are "natural" - that is, they have a genetic factor in their causation.</p>
<p>Would anyone consider them "normal" - shall we tell schizophrenics to "celebrate their difference" and send them off into the world?</p>
<p>There are, in fact, some parents of autistic children who are so infected with political correctness that they refuse "invasive" procedures that are proven to draw autistic kids out into our world, and help them function. They would rather "support" their childrens' "specialness".</p>
<p>All the proud pronouncements about gay rights turn on this propaganda sleight of hand - in which dubious, inconclusive evidence of "natural" causation gets spun somehow into a claim that this behavior is "normal" - and therefore equal.</p>
<p>Big difference.</p>
<p>Homosexuality has been viewed as abnormal and maladapted in almost every major human society in history.</p>
<p>This was based largely on observations of how homosexuals really act - a pattern of compulsive promiscuity and sexual exploitation observed consistently across most times, places, and cultures.</p>
<p>And evidence from swinging Holland, Scandinavia and Canada indicates that the same pattern of compulsive promiscuity persists after all legal protections are extended to homosexuals.</p>
<p>That's the difference between the gay-rights PR circus and the real fights against race and gender prejudice.</p>
<p>Trepp - can you please indicate exactly how claims that homosexuality is "natural" - or the more directly emotional claim that it's "unchosen" - spill over into claims that it is normal - and therefore deserving of equal legal/social status?</p>
<p>'Cause I know a whole bunch of people who would love it if they could just throw off "hateful, chauvinist" public opinion and "celebrate their differences".</p>
<p>Like that new pederast's party in the Netherlands...</p>
<p>(no connection, no, no, of course not, just COINCIDENCE that these people felt they could raise their filthy heads in Holland - no, no, no connection WHATSOEVER to the loosening of legal definitions to accommodate gays - or the "nobody's business what I do in private" attitude that pertains there - how "hateful" and "homophobic" of me to even suggest it...)</p>
<p>And can you explain how this pro-gay stance - and the brave talk about all the behaviors that are "nobody's business" - jibe with your adherence to binding, covenantal Judaism?</p>
<p>Last time I checked, people's social, uh, intercourse was most definitely within the Torah's bailiwick.</p>
<p>Please clarify.</p>treppenwitz commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523e5888342006-06-20T08:19:56Z2008-02-14T04:44:48Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.comLisoosh... I get where Doctor Bean wants to take me/us, but I'm being deliberately obtuse for a reason. The fact...<p>Lisoosh... I get where Doctor Bean wants to take me/us, but I'm being deliberately obtuse for a reason. The fact is I don't disagree with his statement about assigning a value judgement to behaviors. However, the crux of my argument is that being gay is not a behavior... it is a trait with which one is born. The shock value of the parade is very much about behavior and is quite deliberately over the top... but the reason for this is to drive home the point that gay rights can no longer be ignored. Once they get a modicum of equality under the law they will stop marching in such an 'in your face' manner. Think about this: You don't see to many protest marches in Selma AL since African Americans got their civil rights codified and protected under the law, do you? Back then the idea of blacks actually taking to the streets to demand their rights was far more shocking behavior to the populace than any little gay parade is for us today.</p>
<p>amechad... These folks seem to be confused between mitvot <em>bein adam l'makom</em> (commandments between man and G-d) and mitzvot <em>being adam l'havero</em> (interpersonal mitzvot). I can actively protest against you if you move the boundary marker between our properties or if my ox falls into a hole you dug and then left uncovered. But without a Sanhedrin, what right does anyone have to protest a perceived violation of Jewish law that is entirely between man and his Maker?</p>
<p>Irina... As I've said several times already, the outrageous and admittedly inappropriate public displays of sexuality are designed to shock. Any small advances the gay community has made in getting recognition and better treatment under the law is entirely due to Act Up and similar groups that actually bear no resemblance to how gays actually live and act. It's street theater pure and simple and it isn't intended to put people at ease.</p>
<p>Bob... You need to put down the Good Book for a second and actually read what I have written. The reason I gave you such a snarky response before is that you and people like you can't get past the fact that your religious beliefs are not allowed to extend to denying someone else their civil rights. You have the right to live as you wish and believe what you wish... but you do not live in a time period or in a place where your beliefs are enforceable against anyone else. You say these people are sinners... and for you this statement is 100% correct. I say driving on Shabbat is a sin yet I am not allowed to go into Tel Aviv and confiscate people's car keys on Friday afternoon. Sucks, doesn't it?! </p>
<p>jg... My orthodox Jewish children have lived their whole life with a gay aunt who they love unconditionally. We have never really discussed her 'story' with them, mostly because we have never felt compelled to discuss our straight friends' 'stories' with them. Kids understand as much as they are able... and that increases exponentially with age.</p>
<p>Lisoosh... I'm dry heaving over here. :-)</p>
<p>Doctor Bean... It's a good thing you went to medical school and not to law school. I love you like a brother but you'd have made a sh*tty lawyer. The big flaw in your reasoning (and the sole reason I haven't answered you directly) is that you have not related to what I wrote. Instead you have decided to stray off into social Darwinism and pop psychology. It doesn't matter to this discussion that men are more promiscuous or that women are more nurturing. It doesn't matter to this discussion that in one community people say 'please', 'thank you' and 'have a nice day', while on the other side of the planet people would take such niceties as insincerity and putting on airs. The Gay Parade is not meant to be socially acceptable. A man walking down the streets of Judaism's holiest city with an Emu feather sticking out of his *ss is not supposed to be OK. But it is also not OK that men and women who are born into this world with their circuits configured so that they are attracted to the same gender are denied the right to enter into legally recognised unions. They can't inherit property from one another or automatically become the legal parent of their 'spouses' children or even give legally binding orders to a physician should their loved one become incapacitated. Sure they can jump through legal hoops to patch together powers of attorney, trust funds and legal guardianship of minors... but why should they have to when you and I don't? Marching in Tel Aviv wearing shorts, t-shirts and sandals might better represent who these people really are for the other 364 days of the year... but it won't get them the rights they deserve. So they are doing something that you and I both agree is disturbing. that's the nature of protest. Would you rather they burn buildings and throw stones? Stick to the facts, counselor.</p>
<p>StepIma... OK, can I tell you the real reason I chose the less satisfying 'cake hole'? The word 'pie' is also part of a euphemism for an intimate portion of the female anatomy and I was concerned about opening a door through which several of you would certainly have walked. Putting the word 'Pie' and 'hole' in close proximity seemed ill-advised given the subject matter. :-)</p>
<p>Jack... I agree, but both you and Doc Bean are way off topic. :-)</p>
<p>Alice... Several other commenters have pointed out ways in which Jerusalem needs protection that have nothing to do with this one day event. If people were really that concerned about the honor and dignity of this holy city they would be hanging negligent dog owners from lamp posts and demanding that the mayor triple the budget for sanitation services.</p>
<p>Ezer Knegdo... Wow, just one word. :-) BTW, thanks for the mention on your site. I'm still blushing.</p>
<p>Jaime... I don't think Jeruselam was chosen because the organizers thought it would be 'the right place'. In fact I think the choice of this city was becasue so many people would feel quite the opposite. Your comment seems to bear this out. Remember, this is about protest, not just celebrating. The civil rights march in Selma Alabama wouldn't have done much good if it had taken place in New York.</p>
<p>Scott... You and a few other people need to get down off your soap box and recognize that you are missing the point. You are blurring the lines between bad parenting, absent social barriers and destructive behavior and the requirement that human beings enjoy equal legal/civil rights. I don't care how many gay men you danced with or how much 'inside knowledge' you think you have. If an adult has sex with someone below the age of consent, he/she is a criminal. If two adults have consenting sexual relations that is nobody's business. In both of these cases the gender of the participants is completely irrelevant. To put it in another light, I work with a man who is short, fat and has thick curly hair on every square inch of his exposed skin. He looks like a big sweaty bear or a walking bath mat... and the idea that that he actually has a wife who is willing to sleep with him makes me queasy. But it's not my call so I just think about baseball stats whenever I see him. By the same token, if I ever found out that someone was sexually abusing one of my kids the police would never find his/her body. See the difference. In one case I have no say/rights to interfere. In the other the perp has no say/rights.</p>
<p>Yonah... We might as well talk about how many fairies (bad choice of words) can dance on the head of a pin. I pray three times a day for the re-establishment of the Temple and the coming of the Messianic era. I wish with all my heart for the city of Jerusalem to be the center of G-d's eternal kingdom rather than just the capitol city of the State of Israel. But so long as these things haven't come to pass, I have no right to take the cheeseburger out of anyone's mouth or tell any of G-d's creations that they can't violate a Torah law that is entirely between them and their Creator. To answer your last question, I would hope that when we are living in Messianic times G-d will create us in such a way that we are better able to serve His purpose while keeping His commandments... all of them!</p>yonah commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5505240dd88342006-06-20T07:18:10Z2008-02-14T04:45:21ZyonahTrep, you noted in two replies that your stance is based on the common rights of individuals in a "liberal...<p>Trep, you noted in two replies that your stance is based on the common rights of individuals in a "liberal democracy." So it is fair to assume that you see Israel in that political state, and with such a perspective you are inarguably correct that having the parade is in line with that political atmosphere.</p>
<p>Would you then say that if Israel was not a liberal democracy that you might take a different stance?</p>
<p>Finally, Trep, if you were to be the one to choose the political/social status of Israel as you wish it to be what would be your stance on the parade?</p>Scott commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb20a88332006-06-20T06:33:21Z2008-02-14T04:44:35ZScottThis is tragic actually. Political Correctness out of control. Most of you are talking through your hats. I was once...<p>This is tragic actually. Political Correctness out of control. Most of you are talking through your hats. I was once married to a girl who's father owned a gay bar in San Francisco ... was a famous gay performer and died in the eighties from AIDS.</p>
<p>The girl and I lived on the same small ranch with her father and we lived as a family for SIX years. I saw and spoke with this man and his lovers and his friends (hundreds of them) every day. I went to gay bars and danced with gay men. I've had many intimate conversations with many gay men and asked them about their proclivities and how they develolped them. I was quite curious how they could all be so .... over the top and perverse.</p>
<p>I found that they all traveled a road of increasing sexual appetite and perversity. Most of them had tried everything and regularly did things that would make most of you here vomit if you saw it. I found a very strong typology amoungst gay men. Most of them had cold aloof dictatorial fathers and overbearing controlling mothers. This is a known and well researched fact to the science of psychology but has been surpressed since the politically correct American Psychiatric Asc. decided to normalize homosexuality, took it off the list of aberrant behaviour and dictated that ANY mental health professional who dared to 'treat' homosexuality would have his license to practice removed.</p>
<p>Not long ago I mentioned in a post that western society has removed the guard rails in our civilization. When homosexuality is condoned as David and those in agreement with him here are doing ... when it is labeled a reasonable and equal alternative to heterosexual behaviour ... you are in fact endorsing, enabeling, and promoting it.</p>
<p>David is absolutely wrong when he says that every homosexual is born that way. I KNOW that many are not. It is very often an aberrant psychological reaction to very bad parenting and abuse from within and without the home ... just as is sociopathy. If all homosexuals are born that way then how do we explain the bi-sexual? Born that way? Or chosen? Tell me that many many lesbians are born that way! Hells bells lots of them have past marriages and kids! They were faking it all those years right?</p>
<p>Society DEMANDS that people controll their sexual urges. Especially men because the male libido without restraint is violently dangerous. Try and have a happy well adjusted marriage when you've had a couple hundred sexual partners before you get married. (I assure you it sucks ) But gays are encouraged to give free reign. Screw yourselves to death ... literally. Taking shame and social pressure out of a society will lead to chaos and disease. I promise you.</p>
<p>It is already happening. Your own early teen kids are bedding each other like rabbits (no actually rabbits are chaste compared to western teenagers) and you don't even know it. Your heads are in the sand. Your kids live a life you know nothing about. We have taken down the guardrails and we shall pay the price.</p>Ezer Knegdo commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb3a788332006-06-20T01:58:29Z2008-02-14T04:44:49ZEzer Knegdohttp://ezerknegdo.blogspot.comOne question: isn't Israel kind of a theocracy? Doesn't a strict interpretation of Jewish law inform civil legislation? (Because, you...<p>One question: isn't Israel kind of a theocracy? Doesn't a strict interpretation of Jewish law inform civil legislation? (Because, you know, I live in the Good 'ol US of A, where we certainly don't have an acting theocracy. Religious beliefs NEVER inform legislation here. Cough, cough.)</p>jaime commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523c2988342006-06-20T01:40:01Z2008-02-14T04:44:29ZjaimeDoc Bean, don't take this wrong, but I am a little confused with your comments. How are they relevant to...<p>Doc Bean, don't take this wrong, but I am a little confused with your comments. How are they relevant to what David is pointing out in his post, except as another attempt of yours, to 'out him' as a conservative? (David, not that there is ANYTHING wrong with it.)</p>
<p>I wanted to write this earlier, but I wasn't sure how it would come across. I don't think Jerusalem is the right place for a parade of theatrics, or of playful or shocking promiscuity. There are cities in which it would be appropriate, no matter the level of shock value, but if they are choosing Jerusalem for a specific goal or message vs, Tel Aviv, then, the organizers should definitely advocate that the participants and spectators toned it down to a respectable presence. Using shocking behavior only leads to negative reinforcement. </p>
<p>So as much as I said, previously, that I enjoy the party atmosphere and theatrics (including the decadent behaviors), I would not want it in Jerusalem either. Jerusalem has a spirituality and beauty that touches almost anyone who lives or visits her. If the organizers of the parade want it in Jerusalem, I belief, the parade should reflect that and respect it.</p>Ezer Knegdo commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523b5888342006-06-20T01:31:49Z2008-02-14T04:44:22ZEzer Knegdohttp://ezerknegdo.blogspot.comAmen.<p>Amen.</p>Alice commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb2a488332006-06-19T23:22:09Z2008-02-14T04:44:40ZAliceThe Chofetz Chaim considered loshon hora to be the worst misdeed of all, in part because it violates so many...<p>The Chofetz Chaim considered loshon hora to be the worst misdeed of all, in part because it violates so many aspects of Torah. I do this bad thing many times per day, blatantly. How many people protesting this parade can go one day without doing it? That's where I feel confused on this issue. Many people who know a zillion times more about Torah- and who live lives that flow from the Torah much more than I- feel that protecting Jerusalem in specific is very important. I just can't help feeling I have a point on this one. </p>
<p>Oh, and leather chaps are just gross. Anywhere. Especially on big hairy guys, in the summer, outside. I'm against it!! </p>Jack commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523b2388342006-06-19T22:59:48Z2008-02-14T04:44:20ZJackhttp://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/I think (again, all other things being equal) that kids are best raised by a man and a woman. As...<p><i>I think (again, all other things being equal) that kids are best raised by a man and a woman. </i></p>
<p>As long as you are talking about a loving environment. I am not saying that you aren't, but all too often people make the statement without taking it to the logical conclusion.</p>
<p>Man and woman is not always superior just because they are man and woman.</p>stepima commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523d0388342006-06-19T22:11:33Z2008-02-14T04:44:36Zstepimahttp://stepima.blogspot.comthanks for posting this. I agree with Jack, though. Piehole.<p>thanks for posting this. I agree with Jack, though. Piehole.<br />
</p>Doctor Bean commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb20c88332006-06-19T22:11:00Z2008-02-14T04:44:35ZDoctor BeanDavid: You know that I think you are most groovilacious, so I know that you’ll understand that my continued argument...<p>David: You know that I think you are most groovilacious, so I know that you’ll understand that my continued argument is an effort to sharpen both of our opinions and is not at all personal.</p>
<p>I don’t think you’re being fully honest. You say that this is about civil rights but admit that it’s actually about shifting what the public finds outrageous. It’s much more about public opinion and social pressure. I know nothing about the planned march (and have no problem with it at all; I probably feel closer to the marchers than the anti-marchers) so if it’s just about the right of same sex couples to marry, nobody has said that on this thread.</p>
<p>“Different communities have different standards” is just a way to cop out of having to defend your standards when all standards are under attack. Do you really have no preference? Is your position identical to Lisoosh’s?</p>
<p>Lisoosh: You misunderstood me. Please let me clarify. (3) was simply to argue that men and women are different. The argument about their different sexual expressions was not to prove or argue for (4) but merely to support (3). My argument is that if men and women are fundamentally different, perhaps depriving a child from being raised by one or the other is suboptimal. I hope that makes the connection clear.</p>
<p>“So please enlighten me. What is your definition of "better" in this case?”</p>
<p>Oh, come on. Put away the radical egalitarian hobbyhorse for just long enough to read what I’m writing. You want some examples of adult consensual behavior that is better than other? OK. Here: I believe that sex within monogamous marriage is better than adultery, even if the adultery is not secret and consented to by all parties involved. I believe that consensual sex between unrelated adults is better than consensual sex between adults who are siblings, even if pregnancy is impossible. I believe that monogamous marriage is preferable to polygamy.</p>
<p>How’s that for a start? Can I get grudging agreement from you, or would you not dare cast judgment on the incestuous-American community, who after all deserve equal civil rights to all of us?</p>
<p>JG: You may have misunderstood me. I don’t care what the sexual orientation of the parents are. I think (again, all other things being equal) that kids are best raised by a man and a woman. The sexual orientation is irrelevant.<br />
</p>lisoosh commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523c9d88342006-06-19T21:59:21Z2008-02-14T04:44:33ZlisooshDavid - there certainly was a lot of leather. And sweat.<p>David - there certainly was a lot of leather. And sweat.</p>jg commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb3f188332006-06-19T21:21:55Z2008-02-14T04:44:52Zjghttp://nycgadgetgirl.com/jg/"Abba, why dies that lady have a beard?" Explaining these things to my daughter has always turned out to be...<p>"Abba, why dies that lady have a beard?"</p>
<p>Explaining these things to my daughter has always turned out to be so much easier than I expected. When she was about 9, we were walking along and a GORGEOUS transvestite walked past us. I very casually watched ~T~'s reaction as she went by. A few second later, she turned to me and asked "Mommy, was that a man?" I said "Yeah, how could you tell?" She answered "The way she, um, he, walked. Why was he dressed like that?" I said "Maybe he feels more comfortable that way." ~T~ said "Oh, ok." That was it. </p>
<p>Re: who should raise children: A gay couple that I know is planning to adopt soon. I'm sure they will be great parents - better than a lot of straight men. Their child will be lucky to have them. Good parenting depends on the individual, NOT their sexual preference.</p>Bob commented on 'Since you forced me to answer… let me just say, uh, ‘No’'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523d4d88342006-06-19T21:18:09Z2008-02-14T04:44:39ZBobTrepp -- The Bible says many things. Again, your disagreement isn't with me. Personally, I'm a very "tolerant" guy, but...<p>Trepp -- The Bible says many things. Again, your disagreement isn't with me. Personally, I'm a very "tolerant" guy, but I don't delude myself into thinking that my opinions are superior to Hashem's.</p>