Comments on The right to shop vs. the right to rest TypePad2006-05-07T07:56:47ZDavid Bognerhttps://www.treppenwitz.com/tag:typepad.com,2003:https://www.treppenwitz.com/2006/05/the_right_to_sh/comments/atom.xml/Rahel commented on 'The right to shop vs. the right to rest 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550523a5088342006-05-09T06:35:56Z2008-02-14T04:44:12ZRahelhttp://profile.typekey.com/Rahel/I'm completely with you here, David. A co-worker of mine once complained about this issue, and when I asked her...<p>I'm completely with you here, David.</p>
<p>A co-worker of mine once complained about this issue, and when I asked her about the right of people not to work on Shabbat, she replied: "What about my right to shop on Shabbat?"</p>
<p>For me it's a question of stronger vs. weaker economic sectors. The immigrants in the US a century ago had to work insane hours, including on Shabbat, for nothing more than meager subsistence. It took widespread strikes, rioting and sometimes even bloodshed for workers to get some rights, like the 40-hour week. We seem to be heading in that direction in some ways, and it's scary.<br />
</p>Seth commented on 'The right to shop vs. the right to rest 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052376788342006-05-08T13:59:39Z2008-02-14T04:43:41ZSethhttp://judenstadt.blogspot.comjeez david, I wasn't arguing, don't get so defensive. it was just something that came to mind when I was...<p>jeez david, I wasn't arguing, don't get so defensive. it was just something that came to mind when I was reading about how they are going to start really enforcing this.</p>treppenwitz commented on 'The right to shop vs. the right to rest 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eb03288332006-05-08T11:23:33Z2008-02-14T04:44:18Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.comwww.treppenwitz.comJaime... technically it is a criminal matter if an employer forces a Jew to work on Shabbat, but enforcement has...<p>Jaime... technically it is a criminal matter if an employer forces a Jew to work on Shabbat, but enforcement has been almost non-existent in recent years.</p>
<p>Zahava... Yeah sweetie, that bothered me as well, but the information was there if you read the whole thing. That's more than can be said for some papers I won't name here. :-)</p>
<p>Jonah... The other religions are self-regulating, if that's what you mean but I think that only the Jewish Sabbath is legally mandated. I could be wrong about that.</p>
<p>Seth... Don't get me started about not enforcing laws that are on the books. Smoking in public places like malls is something that drives me insane. And you can bet your last sheqel that the moment they start enforcing that law (assuming it ever happens) the smokers will point at some other law and say "But look at all these other statutes that aren't being enforced... why are you picking on us?" My point is that this is existing law that actually makes sense from a socio-economic point of view. It has been appealed and ruled upon by the Supreme court. It is not really helpful to say "<em>...it is really annoying that there will be so much emphasis on forcing people to close their stores on Shabbat, compared to forcing people not to dump their trash on the side walk, etc."</em> when it has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue under discussion.</p>
<p>Irina... Nowhere in the law does it say that people can't pursue secular pastimes (swimming, hiking, BBQs, etc.). It just says that no Jew can be forced to work in order for those pastimes to take place. Heck, in many states in the US if you are planning a Sunday picnic you had better pick up the beer (and in some places even the food) on Saturday or you'll be out of luck.</p>
<p>Frumgirl... Fear may have been an underlying factor, but hate of anything religious was really what was being broadcast loud and clear. To make the inductive leap from stores being closed on a particular day of the week (as is the case in many places in the US) to women being forced to wear a Chador is quite a reach, don't you think?</p>
<p>Lisoosh... 1) no argument. In many ways this is still very much a socialist country. 2) Druse are the perfect answer as they're sabbath doesn't bump up against ours and they have a long history of working with the Israeli government. 3)Before the Intifada most Israelis would feel comfortable shopping in Arab stores, riding Arab buses etc. It was a win-win situation for everyone. Who knows when those days will return.</p>
<p>Joe Settler... My very limited experience tells me that the vast majority of secular Israelis want to maintain a Jewish culture for the country, including some differentiation between Shabbat and the rest of the week. The ones who are the most vocal are a small minority of people who want to shed every shred of Jewishness and become more goyish than the goyim.</p>
<p>Aliyah06... I've heard such stories as well, and I take heart in the knowledge that it does not seem to be a very common occurrence. The nice thing is that the Israeli workplace is MUCH more family friendly for working moms that US. Employers seem to be much more in tune with the needs of family life than anything I ever saw in the states. So maybe there's a trade-off karma-wise. :-)</p>
<p>Doctor Bean... What made that movie so funny was the large grain of truth at the core of each joke. :-)</p>
<p>PK... Ya think??? :-)</p>
<p>Andy Levy-Stevenson... That isn't going to happen because the net result would be a 4.5 day work week since people would still need to leave early on Friday to prepare for Shabbat. </p>
<p>Westbankmama... I agree. So many of my secular friends keep some aspects of kashrut and shabbat/holidays without even thinking about it. I guess you only miss something when you suddenly can't have it. Sad.</p>
<p>Lioness... You're forgetting a couple of things... like who drives the buses? The truth is there are plenty of alternatives. 20 years ago cars were a relative luxury, but almost every Israeli family has at least one car these days (or access to one at least). As I said to another commenter, there is nothing stopping anyone from going on tiyulim or spending the day at the beach. The law simply addresses Jews being employed on shabbat... something that the courts have ruled would be counter to the social good of a common day off for everyone. In the old days before the Arabs shot their economy in the foot with the Intifadas, secular Jews used to shop in their stores on shabbat and ride their buses when the Jewish Bus lines stopped for shabbat. It was a perfect symbiosis... but these days nobody is going into Kalkilya or Hevron to find bargains.</p>Lioness commented on 'The right to shop vs. the right to rest 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5505238c188342006-05-08T10:28:50Z2008-02-14T04:43:58ZLionesshttp://lioness-pride.blogspot.comLioness hearts Dr Bean! That's my favourite of their movies. Do you know, I think this is deeper than hat....<p>Lioness hearts Dr Bean! That's my favourite of their movies. </p>
<p>Do you know, I think this is deeper than hat. I agree that a weekend is a must, i.e., all employees should have 2 days of rest. One or one and a half doesn't really seem like enough. But on Shabbat it's not just the stores, it's also, say, the busses. And in that sense it's not really abt the employees' rest, is it. You are forced to stay put if you don't have alternatives. There's no freedom in that. </p>
<p>Here in Portugal we have the weekend off, but Saturdays the stores are open, which means employees work shifts. Sundays until one big stores (what we call big surfaces, like Walmart. Wall Mart? Gah.) are allowed to be open but no longer than that bcs of small shops. Regardless, small shops are losing the trend battle, it's simply easier to shop where everything is gathered together. I don't see how they can win. And life goes on here as usual, the buses and the tube are running, and you can pretty much do everything you need to, and that, I believe, is the big differenceand what ultimately those women were referring to. I don't think they were talking only abt the stores closing, I think there is an ingrained fear that the lay population will increasingly NOT be able to choose bcs that option was taken away from them. </p>
<p>I think, though, there is a difference between working in a supermarket or a regular firm, for instance. Here people know that if they take a job in the former they will be required to regularly work on the weekend, bcs that's when most of the population has their days off. </p>
<p>The same way I feel that the religious ones should be given the freedom to keep Shabbat as they want to, I feel that non-religious people should be able to do what they want in their time off, without constraints. That goes far beyond the shopping, and even with social matters included, I think it is mostly a religious subjetc. The other aspect of it, the other shabbat restrictions, were not even mentioned, and they are a big part of why these women were afraid, I think.</p>
<p>And I have a humungous beef with things such as the Sabbos goy or the ma'alit Shabbat so I'll shut up now.</p>westbankmama commented on 'The right to shop vs. the right to rest 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eae0b88332006-05-08T07:25:17Z2008-02-14T04:43:56Zwestbankmamahttp://www.westbankblog.blogspot.comI was once shopping at a Superpharm on a Friday morning in the winter. The non-religious cashier asked me when...<p>I was once shopping at a Superpharm on a Friday morning in the winter. The non-religious cashier asked me when candle-lighting time was, and I told her (around 5:00 at that time of year). She then complained bitterly to me that she had to work until 4:00 and she didn't know how she would get her cooking done by the 5:00 deadline. There are many Israelis who do not appear to be religious by their dress but who do want to keep Shabbos - and these laws are meant to protect them. Let's be honest - those of us who label ourselves religious will never take a job requiring breaking the Sabbath - but those who are traditional might - and that is a real shame.</p>Andy Levy-Stevenson commented on 'The right to shop vs. the right to rest 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052384c88342006-05-08T06:43:32Z2008-02-14T04:43:52ZAndy Levy-StevensonI'd like to see Israel move towards a Saturday-Sunday weekend. If there was a real day off from work, when...<p>I'd like to see Israel move towards a Saturday-Sunday weekend. If there was a real day off from work, when one could still shop, travel, see a movie, go out for brunch, etc., I think the pressure to ignore the Shabbat trading rules would dissipate.</p>pk commented on 'The right to shop vs. the right to rest 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eae8988332006-05-08T05:56:57Z2008-02-14T04:44:02ZpkOne of the wonders of coalition politics, its all about party's interests and seldom about the people.<p>One of the wonders of coalition politics, its all about party's interests and seldom about the people. </p>Doctor Bean commented on 'The right to shop vs. the right to rest 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5505236db88342006-05-08T03:36:20Z2008-02-14T04:43:38ZDoctor Beanhttp://kerckhoff.blogspot.com"The only people we hate more than the Romans, are the Judean People's Front. Splitters!"<p>"The only people we hate more than the Romans, are the Judean People's Front. Splitters!"</p>aliyah06 commented on 'The right to shop vs. the right to rest 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ead7a88332006-05-08T01:37:14Z2008-02-14T04:43:48Zaliyah06http://www.bakadiary.blogspot.comI've never been employed in Israel, but I haave been told by a number of women that the very fact...<p>I've never been employed in Israel, but I haave been told by a number of women that the very fact of dressing frum has caused them to lose job opportunities (mostly hi-tech, one medical) because while they were not ASKED if they would work on Shabbat it was clear from their style of dress that they would not....in one case the job went to a far less qualified secular Israeli simply because he was willing to work on Shabbat. To the extent that Shas levels the playing field and makes discrimination on the basis of Shabbat observance impossible, I'm for it. Jews in the US suffered for decades before the 7th Day Adventists (Christians who worship on Saturday) shoved through legislation making Satrudays a day off. I still have problems at work with the issue of working late on Fridays. If secular Israelis MUST have an entire day devoted to shopping, then lobby the Knesset to make Friday or Sunday a day off---or some other day. There is no reason for 40+% of the population to be coerced into working on Shabbat or suffer job discrimination because they won't.</p>JoeSettler commented on 'The right to shop vs. the right to rest 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eae3588332006-05-07T22:23:26Z2008-02-14T04:43:58ZJoeSettlerhttp://www.JoeSettler.comYears ago (in Israel), I was turned down for a job that I was eminently qualified for. I still suspect...<p>Years ago (in Israel), I was turned down for a job that I was eminently qualified for. </p>
<p>I still suspect the reason had to do with the potential employer asking me if I was prepared to work on Shabbat, and my answer was that if it were a situation of Pikuach Nefesh and my presence could directly save the life of someone, of course I would show up. </p>
<p>At the time I was a programmer, so I wasn't quite clear why I would need to be there on Shabbat, or much less, how exactly my incredible programming skills might save a life (particularly as this was a financial programming job), but I didn't think to ask that. </p>
<p>I was and am still shocked that in Israel I would be asked such a question.</p>
<p>I did end up working there for a different department, and never once did I have to come in on Shabbat to write some code to save someone's life. I was very disappointed.</p>
<p>---</p>
<p>I was listening to to a call up show on the radio last year, and the wife was complaining that her family is falling apart because they never get time together because his day off wasn't on Shabbat, but rather Tuesday, and she couldn't get her boss to give her Tuesday off instead.</p>
<p>One of the greatest gifts Judaism has given to the world is the concept of a day of rest. It freed society from the servitude of endless work.</p>
<p>Yet Israelis are so quick to throw away something so valuable, or at least make other people throw it away.</p>
<p>What a shame.</p>
<p><br />
</p>lisoosh commented on 'The right to shop vs. the right to rest 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eac5e88332006-05-07T21:47:59Z2008-02-14T04:43:37ZlisooshThree observations: 1. The JPost article struck me as being actually less about the religious aspects and more about the...<p>Three observations:<br />
1. The JPost article struck me as being actually less about the religious aspects and more about the social. It was almost a socialism vs. capitalism piece.</p>
<p>2. Funny how they use Druse inspectors to help enforce Jewish law amongst the Jews. Another spin on Shabbat goy.</p>
<p>3. It highlights one of the benefits of a country with various religious groups with different religious days. When I lived in Jerusalem, if I wanted to buy something on the Sabbath I would go to an Arab store (course the store would be small and sucky but that is a whole other issue) or to the old city. Druse off on Thursday, Muslims on Friday, Jews on Saturday and Christians on Sunday. Everyone is served. Perfect!</p>FrumGirl commented on 'The right to shop vs. the right to rest 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eaecd88332006-05-07T21:15:01Z2008-02-14T04:44:05ZFrumGirlhttp://www.femalefrumstruggle.blogspot.comI did not read the jpost article yet but wanted to point out that what you heard these women talking...<p>I did not read the jpost article yet but wanted to point out that what you heard these women talking about sounds like fear to me. Were they bringing up the current laws or were they just discussing their feelings? Sure, the reinforcement of no-shopping-on-shabbos will be an inconvenience but next thing they talk about is wearing a full body covering - they are just afraid of a more right-wing gov't. Afraid of change. Afraid of how that will translate for them in the long run. And you must admit, it can get pretty suffocating for women.... </p>
<p>Now I will go read.</p>Irina commented on 'The right to shop vs. the right to rest 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052389788342006-05-07T21:06:04Z2008-02-14T04:43:55ZIrinahttp://sicat222.blogspot.comHmm...employees' rights do appear to be an important issue. As long as the laws are uniform, and there are other...<p>Hmm...employees' rights do appear to be an important issue. As long as the laws are uniform, and there are other days for secular pastimes, it's probably a good thing.</p>Seth commented on 'The right to shop vs. the right to rest 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eaf4988332006-05-07T18:04:32Z2008-02-14T04:44:09ZSethhttp://judenstadt.blogspot.comThe sad part is that this is one of the few laws that will actually be enforced in Israel. While...<p>The sad part is that this is one of the few laws that will actually be enforced in Israel. While the Shabbat law doesn't seem that offensive, it is really annoying that there will be so much emphasis on forcing people to close their stores on Shabbat, compared to forcing people not to dump their trash on the side walk, etc etc etc.</p>Jonah commented on 'The right to shop vs. the right to rest 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052387088342006-05-07T17:29:08Z2008-02-14T04:43:53ZJonahActually I was wondering on a side note, do the other religious communities have similar protections, that is to say...<p>Actually I was wondering on a side note, do the other religious communities have similar protections, that is to say are the Muslims guaranteed Friday off and the Christians Sunday. Im just curious because I know Israel often allows its minorities to handle their own religious affairs like marriage etc ...</p>zahava commented on 'The right to shop vs. the right to rest 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eaea888332006-05-07T17:22:55Z2008-02-14T04:44:03ZzahavaPersonally, I was enraged by the JPost article -- the headline is a grossly misleading and sensationalized non-starter. I would...<p>Personally, I was enraged by the JPost article -- the headline is a grossly misleading and sensationalized non-starter. I would be willing to bet that a large percentage of readers did not get to the point in the article where employee rights were discussed, but rather took the position that your coffee-shop ladies had that this is "what you get" when you have a religious voice in government. It is a shame that the issue of employee rights will take a back seat to the continuing tug of war between the fanatics on both sides of the religious/secular issues.</p>jaime commented on 'The right to shop vs. the right to rest 'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ead8e88332006-05-07T14:44:51Z2008-02-14T04:43:49Zjaimehttp://www.sweetooth120.blogspot.comThat's very interesting. One can see how pro/anti religious views or separation of church and state can play a big...<p>That's very interesting. </p>
<p>One can see how pro/anti religious views or separation of church and state can play a big role in this debate, BUT I like how the economical and family values issue also has a role. I know this may seem like a joke for Israeli politics, but can a compromise be reached that small business owners are protected by losing businesses to the competitors - like some sort of tax breaks or other incentives? It already seems that the Supreme court has laid down its position on forcing another individual take a different day off. </p>
<p>Also, do they have civil suits against an employers that refuses to hire someone if they are available for work anytime other than the Sabbath? I am thinking of someone who would work in the restaurant/bar business?</p>