Comments on Ibrahim's mirrorTypePad2006-04-02T08:13:02ZDavid Bognerhttps://www.treppenwitz.com/tag:typepad.com,2003:https://www.treppenwitz.com/2006/04/mirrors/comments/atom.xml/TM commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eaa5d88332006-04-06T18:20:54Z2008-02-14T04:43:17ZTMhttp://www.jewlicious.comIt's not that I disagree with you that vibrant communities are going to be destroyed. I do. It hurts me...<p><br />
It's not that I disagree with you that vibrant communities are going to be destroyed. I do. It hurts me greatly that we will leave them behind and it hurts me greatly that places that are so important to our history and traditions are going to be abandoned, probably without any future access, to the Palestinians.</p>
<p>It's just that if you look at the story you've told, after so many years of such stories - or worse, ones where people get killed or injured - my personal belief is that we are better off "disengaging." I want to put a fence between them and us because our interaction has failed in so many respects and Israeli society could be much healthier without the ethical and moral burden of the decisions the soldiers we put in the field have to make on a daily basis.</p>
<p>I am working on a post about this and will give you a shout when I publish it so that you can take a look. Again, I think this was a terrific post.</p>treppenwitz commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052347088342006-04-06T13:10:22Z2008-02-14T04:43:14Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.comAlice... That, and the fact that most reporters don't bother to do even the most basic historical research before reporting...<p>Alice... That, and the fact that most reporters don't bother to do even the most basic historical research before reporting on conflicts that have deep historical and contextual roots.</p>
<p>The middle... I agree with most of what you've said except for the use of the word 'most' when talking about which settlements are untenable. Of course many are so remote and sparsely populated that it is silly to consider holding on to them in any sacrifice of land. However the way the current (and likely future) government is building the security fence is making otherwise vibrant communities that are quite near population centers almost indefensible. This creation of self-fulfilling prophecies is disturbing at best.</p>TheMiddle commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ea9fa88332006-04-06T09:49:32Z2008-02-14T04:43:14ZTheMiddlehttp://www.jewlicious.comNice post. Without taking sides here, I will say that it is not uncommon for Palestinians to plant as close...<p>Nice post.</p>
<p>Without taking sides here, I will say that it is not uncommon for Palestinians to plant as close as possible to settlement lands and borders. As I understand it, the Israel Supreme Court has ruled that settlements may not expand into land that is in use for any purpose. Of course, the meaning is that if Palestinians are already present and working the land, then the settlement has no right to usurp those lands. As a result, one of the tactics used by the Palestinians has been to attempt to plant "facts on the ground" as close to the settlements as they can.</p>
<p>At the end of the day, it's a fight over land that both sides covet. </p>
<p>My only real thoughts after reading the post was not who was to blame and why, but rather that most of the settlements are simply untenable. Ultimately, whether it is Ibrahim or Shmulik who is the victim, and whether it is Ibrahim or Shmulik who is "right," both of them, their families, their friends, their communities and their nations come out losers. </p>Alice commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052382588342006-04-04T15:13:26Z2008-02-14T04:43:50ZAliceCreative and well done. This illustrates why it's so hard to be a good reporter.<p>Creative and well done. This illustrates why it's so hard to be a good reporter. </p>treppenwitz commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5505235f088342006-04-04T10:21:30Z2008-02-14T04:43:29Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.comArtem... As I told Mobius. Fences have a place in the world and people have the right to build them....<p>Artem... As I told Mobius. Fences have a place in the world and people have the right to build them. But the lack of a fence is not a provocation or an open invitation to encroachment or theft. Blaming the victim is never OK.</p>
<p>Tiburon... Thank you. Joe Settler and I are neighbors and I'm flattered he chose to share my writing.</p>
<p>Rahel... The police aren't able to make a determination on the spot who's land is who's. They get a complaint and act on it. Kacha ze.</p>
<p>PP... We can agree to disagree. But my point is there were endless places to plant a memorial grove of trees that would not have been seen as a provocation. The spot they chose was not such a place. I also think the spot was chosen specifically as a challenge and a provocation.</p>
<p>Elie... Thanks but by then I'm sure the field will be thick with worthy nominees.</p>
<p>Lisoosh... At least you are a universally sympathetic person. There are worse things to be. :-)</p>
<p>Dave... Just the opposite. The police are much quicker to arrest settlers these days because it is far easier to prosecute them (i.e. they have real names, property, assets, addresses, etc.).</p>
<p>Scott... One that is based not just on British, Turkish and Israeli law... but one that lacks a constitution.</p>
<p>Kate... That makes two of us. :-)</p>
<p>Ben... I've seen it go both ways. Really. In fact I think you'd find most Palestinians waiting at check points ready to argue with your assessment of preferential treatment.</p>
<p>Stacey... But then again you live in Texas and people don't go in for claim jumping 'round those parts. :-)</p>
<p>American Crusader... I'm not sure. As I said to other commenters, the police get a complaint and they act to intervene. They aren't judges or surveyors.</p>
<p>David All... There are far too many agitators on both sides who are more Israeli than the Israelis and more Palestinian than the Palestinians. A pox on all their houses I say. :-)</p>
<p>Ezzie... You said it.</p>Ezzie commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ea9a188332006-04-04T07:14:49Z2008-02-14T04:43:11ZEzziehttp://serandez.blogspot.comIn fact worse than being impartial is constantly overcompensating the other way to counter a tendency to be biased. :-)...<p><i>In fact worse than being impartial is constantly overcompensating the other way to counter a tendency to be biased. :-)</i></p>
<p>Heh. :) Amen.</p>
<p>Better to recognize our biases and live with them.</p>David All commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eaa5688332006-04-03T21:49:51Z2008-02-14T04:43:17ZDavid AllGreat Post, David. My sympathies are with Ibrahaim/Avraham, regardless of him being Arab or Jewish. I would have probably have...<p>Great Post, David.<br />
My sympathies are with Ibrahaim/Avraham, regardless of him being Arab or Jewish. I would have probably have done the same thing myself. It is true that going to the courts is probably the right thing to do, especially for Avraham (It is natural that being Jewish does gives one an advantage in a Jewish State), but even so the deep desire to get rid of something, some one else has planted on YOUR propery can override more rational considerations. </p>
<p>The people I dislike are those that got others to do their dirty work for them (i.e. plant the trees), and the zealous outsiders who did the planting & who knew little or nothing about what the situation really was, but thought they were striking a blow for their respective cause. It is idiots like the last that are, like those Irish-Americans who show their love for Ireland through helping the IRA tear the country apart, as Conor Cruise O'Brien noted more then 30 years ago. </p>American Crusader commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ea9ea88332006-04-03T21:44:17Z2008-02-14T04:43:13ZAmerican Crusaderhttp://americasnewcrusaders.blogspot.com/Sorry for the desecration of the English language in my post. there instead of their, and the mirror made this...<p>Sorry for the desecration of the English language in my post. there instead of their, and the mirror made this not his.</p>
<p>This should be a reminder for all poor spellers such as myself to proofread...lol</p>American Crusader commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eaa1688332006-04-03T21:40:47Z2008-02-14T04:43:15ZAmerican Crusaderhttp://americasnewcrusaders.blogspot.com/Excellent post and well thought out. The "mirror" made his very thought-provoking. My first question is; is this an aberration...<p>Excellent post and well thought out. The "mirror" made his very thought-provoking. My first question is; is this an aberration or a common occurrence. Second; if the land was owned by Ibraham, I fail to see what law he broke (although I am totally unfamiliar with the laws over their). From the beginning, this appeared to be a "set up", to flame relationships between Jews and Arabs.</p>Stacey commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5505234b488342006-04-03T18:45:11Z2008-02-14T04:43:17ZStaceyhttp://pesharachel.blogspot.comGreat post. Actually, I sided on Ibrahim's side from the beginning (and still do). I put myself in his position...<p>Great post. Actually, I sided on Ibrahim's side from the beginning (and still do). I put myself in his position and I asked myself what I would have done had it been me. I would've uprooted them, too. If I went home from work today and saw that people planted something on my land that I did not want, I would remove it. </p>Ben commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052330688342006-04-03T18:25:06Z2008-02-14T04:43:02ZBenGreat post. I was pretty surprised to find the police taking the Jewish side in the original formulation... now it...<p>Great post. I was pretty surprised to find the police taking the Jewish side in the original formulation... now it asll makes sense... sort of.</p>Kate commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052368188342006-04-03T17:32:59Z2008-02-14T04:43:35ZKatehttp://writinginwax.blogspot.comAh, curse my bleeding heart liberalness! Thank you very much for this exercise. It taught me quite a bit about...<p>Ah, curse my bleeding heart liberalness! Thank you very much for this exercise. It taught me quite a bit about myself.</p>
<p>K.</p>Scott commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5505234a488342006-04-03T17:13:20Z2008-02-14T04:43:16ZScottAnother thought: What kind of legal system is it that arrests a guy for removing illegally planted trees from his...<p>Another thought: What kind of legal system is it that arrests a guy for removing illegally planted trees from his own property?</p>dave commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052343988342006-04-03T17:10:08Z2008-02-14T04:43:13ZdaveDave, I doubt he would have been arrested as Ibrahim but as Abraham he would. it is a strange country<p>Dave, I doubt he would have been arrested as Ibrahim but as Abraham he would. it is a strange country</p>Lisoosh commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052330288342006-04-03T14:17:49Z2008-02-14T04:43:02ZLisooshSympathies on both sides. My take from other commenters is that I think in a different way from a lot...<p>Sympathies on both sides. My take from other commenters is that I think in a different way from a lot of people (in a universal sense) - whenever I hear/read a narrative I tend to focus less on the actual words and more on the teller, what they are trying to get across, what might be going on in their head as they tell the story.<br />
At first, I felt sympathy for "Ibrahim" and very surprised that you knew so much about his life and seemed to empathize with him - my previous impression having been that you did not have much contact with local Arabs. I then wondered if experience was changing your world view, the actual account did not surprise me very much. When you mentioned the farmer taking things into his own hands, assuming it was an Arab I wasn't surprised as my perception is that they feel that the law does not work for them.<br />
With the twist - at first I thought the husband of the piano teacher was Arab and thought "Oh that is surprisingly open" - seems I have something in common with Lisa and PP. Then I thought "crap, there is an attempt at manipulation here" which kind of dominated my thinking from then on. I do feel sympathy for the Jewish farmer too, my main surprise is that he also feels that the law does not work for him (something we have touched on in conversation) to the degree that he does. I was also surprised at the response of the Army to him - so you got me there - definitely harsher than I would have expected.<br />
I tend to not have any sympathy for anyone - either foreign Jewish activists or Pro-Palestinian activists - who get all tangled up in events on the ground, no matter how well meaning (although I would prefer to hear the last of the whole Rachel Corrie cult). I think they cause more trouble than good .</p>
<p>Thats my stream of conciousness take on things. Remember, I spent years in sales and plan on training as a therapist so I am constantly looking for what may or may not be going on beneath the words. Thats just me.</p>Elie commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eaa9388332006-04-03T14:09:18Z2008-02-14T04:43:19ZEliehttp://elie-expo.blogspot.com/I think they can retire the "Best Post" JIB category for 2006 right now. Wonderful post. As a "knee-jerk centrist"...<p>I think they can retire the "Best Post" JIB category for 2006 right now. Wonderful post.</p>
<p>As a "knee-jerk centrist" who employs the same "shoe on the other foot" exercise as you do when looking at these situations, this post really spoke to me.</p>PP commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eaa1888332006-04-03T12:58:10Z2008-02-14T04:43:15ZPPhttp://goingslightlymad.blogspot.comNot sure if I concur with your interpretation of Ta'ayush's "memorial" to Rachel Corrie but I'm not about to pick...<p>Not sure if I concur with your interpretation of Ta'ayush's "memorial" to Rachel Corrie but I'm not about to pick a fight. I'll just register my disagreement. </p>
<p>*Sigh* I think what I've gathered from your post -and my daily life- is that there are very few acts that can be carried out round these parts (by either "side") which aren't perceived as provocative by someone...</p>
<p>Look forward to the later posting. </p>Rahel commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5505234e288342006-04-03T12:03:44Z2008-02-14T04:43:18ZRahelhttp://profile.typekey.com/Rahel/I'm late to the thread, but my sympathies were with Ibrahim, and that didn't change once Ibrahim became Avraham. Together...<p>I'm late to the thread, but my sympathies were with Ibrahim, and that didn't change once Ibrahim became Avraham.</p>
<p>Together with some other commenters here, I wonder how removing trees illegally planted on his own land could possibly constitute taking the law into his own hands. If Avraham had taken offense to the trees being planted on public lands and removed them on his own initiative, I could perhaps see it, but then I could see the tree-planting itself as taking the law (or political one-upmanship) into one's hands, too.</p>
<p>I hope that "Avraham" will soon have his day in court, and I wish him luck.<br />
</p>Tiburon commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eaa8888332006-04-03T11:07:59Z2008-02-14T04:43:19ZTiburonFound your Excellent and elegant O. Henry-esque thought experiment re-posted/linked on joe settler. Kudos!<p>Found your Excellent and elegant O. Henry-esque thought experiment re-posted/linked on joe settler. Kudos! </p>Artem Ayupov commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eab4c88332006-04-03T10:06:51Z2008-02-14T04:43:27ZArtem AyupovNice mistakes (two: last papagraph, please change "your" to "our"), I've just made. Freudian slip. Mille pardons.<p>Nice mistakes (two: last papagraph, please change "your" to "our"), I've just made. Freudian slip. Mille pardons.</p>Artem Ayupov commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052342c88342006-04-03T09:54:10Z2008-02-14T04:43:12ZArtem AyupovNice post, David! For common people, it's sometimes difficult to prove that they are who they are and they have...<p>Nice post, David!</p>
<p>For common people, it's sometimes difficult to prove that they are who they are and they have a right to something, when they haven't a local prosecutor among their good friends. </p>
<p>I could give a tip to "Ibrahim" is that, next time, he just fence his property off or doing something to mark clearly his property, to make boundary marks up. It may help.</p>
<p>The case is that we are responsible for your property. We are charged to make your property effective. The first thing is to isolate our property from someone else's one. I believe that "Ibrahim" has violated this simple rule. </p>treppenwitz commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052356088342006-04-03T09:27:48Z2008-02-14T04:43:24Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.comEzzie... I don't think anyone is truly impartial. In fact worse than being impartial is constantly overcompensating the other way...<p>Ezzie... I don't think anyone is truly impartial. In fact worse than being impartial is constantly overcompensating the other way to counter a tendency to be biased. :-)</p>
<p>Ben David... Thanks. I tend to side with you about the legal system being loaded towards one side of the scale, but I really wish someone would do a balanced study of legal decisions that would support this feeling we both have. I'm uncomfortable saying it without a firm basis in statistical fact.</p>
<p>Mobius.. OK, we're done here. I'm gonna have to invoke the 'no ax grinding' clause of the commenter's agreement you tacitly signed when you came here. I'm quite familiar with your position and for that reason I don't comment over at your place. If you are beginning with the assumption that every single 'settlement' from Gilo to Efrat to Bat Ayin is both illegal and an open provocation to criminal action and violence, then there is no room for discussion or intellectual compromise. Without such a possibility I refuse to waste my time with anyone. I was actually quite offended by your depiction of the settlements as unlocked cars in a high crime neighborhood. It paints the Palestinians in a very unflattering and unfair light. Anyway, you are always welcome here if you wish to join the discussion and exchange ideas in such a way as to suggest an open mind. But you aren't sharing anything new or helpful here... just being disruptive. Anarchists - orthodox or otherwise - are not welcome in this comment board.</p>mobius commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ea86e88332006-04-03T09:12:22Z2008-02-14T04:43:01Zmobiushttp://www.orthodoxanarchist.comYou honestly mean to tell me that a settlement deciding NOT to build a fence is somehow a provocation to...<p><i>You honestly mean to tell me that a settlement deciding NOT to build a fence is somehow a provocation to encroachment?!</i></p>
<p>i didn't say that at all. i said that it creates ambiguity -- ie., confusion -- and therefore you can not expect people to behave as if there are lines drawn.</p>
<p><br />
<i>BTW, Efrat doesn't have a fence either... should this be considered a provocation???</i></p>
<p>all settlements are provocation, whether they have a fence or not.</p>
<p><br />
<i>This reasoning is like those who blame rape victims for dressing too provocatively, or robbery victims for not having strong enough locks on their doors.</i></p>
<p>no, this is more like leaving your car unlocked and the windows rolled down overnight in a neighborhood with a high statistical rate of car theft.</p>
<p><br />
<i>Also, you are being deliberately obtuse if you can honestly pretend not to understand how a farmer might be quite upset when he pulls up trees he feels were planted as a direct provocation against him and then loses his primary means of supporting himself and his family in what he sees an an unjust aftermath. You must be one cold-blooded Vulcan if you find such an emotional outburst incomprehensible.</i></p>
<p>after reading rabbis for human rights' weekly emails which recount, time and again, instances when settlers uproot trees on arab land, claim arab land as their own and begin plowing and planting on it, or beating arab farmers to prevent them from harvesting, you'll have to forgive me for being skeptical and not giving settlers the benefit of the doubt. when i see some evidence supporting "ibrahim"'s claims, i'll reconsider my position.</p>
<p><br />
<i>The funny thing is that many of the people I thought would have difficulty shifting sympathies at the end of my post had none... Yet you were so locked into your loyalties that you went directly to defend only your own position.</i></p>
<p>only because i knew what incident you were talking about and the fishier circumstances surrounding it. if your post were mere allegory, i'd be more sympathetic. but it's not -- it's a potential distortion of reality which legitimates an act of war; one which is assur on two counts: an eye for an eye being monetary (and to be determined by a beit din) and destroying fruit bearing trees.</p>Ben-David commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5505234ca88342006-04-03T08:02:41Z2008-02-14T04:43:17ZBen-David... coming a bit late to this post, but - yasher ko'ach! This really is a great piece. It would...<p>... coming a bit late to this post, but - yasher ko'ach! This really is a great piece. </p>
<p>It would be interesting to do this periodically, to keep us all on our toes.</p>
<p>Initially, I immediately connected "Ibrahim's" story to similar - true - stories that have involved the local Arabs who used to work in our village, and an Arab computer programmer I worked with a few years back.</p>
<p>Yes, there is inequitable scrutiny by the police and others. But as long as Israeli civilians are justified in their fear of being attacked by Arab terrorists, it's not going to go away.</p>
<p>Regarding the legal system - I think at the higher levels there is definitely prejudice against Jews in property claims over the Green Line. Even the army is having difficulty confiscating slivers of land to build the barrier - with the full force of government policy and eminent domain behind it.</p>Ezzie commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eaa0d88332006-04-03T07:59:20Z2008-02-14T04:43:15ZEzziehttp://serandez.blogspot.comEzzie... As tempting as it may be to 'make seder' and assign blame or suggest a course of action, the...<p><i>Ezzie... As tempting as it may be to 'make seder' and assign blame or suggest a course of action, the point of the post was that even someone like myself who is very close to the story is not in possession of the most important facts. I was/am relying on hearsay and second-hand information. At the outset so are the police. That your first instinct was to try to sort it all out is admirable... but hopelessly doomed.</i></p>
<p>Actually, that was partially my point: It's impossible to make sense of any situation completely unless we're there. We do our best to make sense of it based on what we see and hear. OM's comment nailed it on the head - the biases in how we hear the story affect our own thoughts on the matter; sometimes because we choose to believe they aren't biased, and other times because we assume they are.</p>
<p>I'd love to think I'm completely impartial, but I know enough to recognize that we're not infallible. This post made me feel "better" that I must not be too biased, in that my opinions didn't change based on the story flip; but OTOH, if I were there, I don't think I'd be so even-handed.</p>treppenwitz commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ea9b988332006-04-03T07:19:13Z2008-02-14T04:43:12Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.comMobius... Oh c'mon now, you're just being silly now. You honestly mean to tell me that a settlement deciding NOT...<p>Mobius... Oh c'mon now, you're just being silly now. You honestly mean to tell me that a settlement deciding NOT to build a fence is somehow a provocation to encroachment?! BTW, Efrat doesn't have a fence either... should this be considered a provocation??? This reasoning is like those who blame rape victims for dressing too provocatively, or robbery victims for not having strong enough locks on their doors. Do you realize how crazy that sounds?. Also, you are being deliberately obtuse if you can honestly pretend not to understand how a farmer might be quite upset when he pulls up trees he feels were planted as a direct provocation against him and then loses his primary means of supporting himself and his family in what he sees an an unjust aftermath. You must be one cold-blooded Vulcan if you find such an emotional outburst incomprehensible. The funny thing is that many of the people I thought would have difficulty shifting sympathies at the end of my post had none... Yet you were so locked into your loyalties that you went directly to defend only your own position. </p>mobius commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5505234f988342006-04-03T07:05:14Z2008-02-14T04:43:19Zmobiushttp://www.orthodoxanarchist.comWith all the trackless open areas in this region where trees could have been planted it seems strange that they...<p><i>With all the trackless open areas in this region where trees could have been planted it seems strange that they should choose to plant them so close to, or on, the land of a Bat Ayin farmer...</i></p>
<p>when bat ayin's policy is not to have a fence because they <i>want</i> the ambiguity of "whose land is whose," i don't think it's fair to hold others accountable for being unsure themselves. further, bat ayin began as an illegal outpost which was only retroactively approved as a settlement. any land ownership claims there are dubious at best.</p>
<p><i>I never suggested he did go quietly into that good night. In fact I think I made it clear he was quite agitated. You may argue whether his agitation was justified.</i></p>
<p>if it was "his land" and he did nothing wrong, why would he have resisted the arrest? he would have cooperated, thinking nothing of it, assured of his eventual vindication.</p>treppenwitz commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eaa4188332006-04-03T07:00:38Z2008-02-14T04:43:16Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.comEzer Knegdo... My older sister and I used to smack the crap out of each other, not for its own...<p>Ezer Knegdo... My older sister and I used to smack the crap out of each other, not for its own sake, but to try and get the other one to respond when one of our parents would be watching. This sense of trying to get the authorities to notice the response (if, in fact, that is what it was) seems to be the modus operandi employed by both parties here to great effect.</p>
<p>Orthomom... That means you really read with a fairly open mind. You would have sympathized with anyone in that situation... not just someone with whom you're politically or religiously aligned. Congratulations.</p>
<p>Yetanother... Thank you for doing the research on submitting opeds. I think this one has already garnered enough attention that the print media might not find it 'fresh enough'. However I will file away the links for future bolts of inspiration. By the way, if you honestly think NPR would run something like this you have another thing coming. The premise of personal bias is something NPR is incapable of admitting exists in the world.</p>
<p>Scott... I should have set up some sort of golf-like handicap system for hardliners like yourself. :-) If you felt any remorse at all for the Arabs I think I'd have to call that a 'gimmee'. :-)</p>
<p>Shmutzy... Thanks, he'll need it.</p>
<p>Tonny... Good for you. I'm glad you were able to maintain your objectivity.</p>
<p>PP... As I said to Lisa (also see today's post later) there are more role-based assumptions we make or don't make concerning Arabs that bother me much more. As to the clarification about members of Ta'ayush... the motives I've suggested (provocation) still hold no matter where the tree planters were from. If Jews were to habitually build settlements or plant fields directly abutting Arab villages with the expressed purpose of limiting future expansion and causing friction with the inhabitants, it would be considered an overt provocation. But when an international or local Israeli/Palestinian group does it, it is somehow considered fine. The point I tried to make to Mobius is that if you want to honor the memory of Rachel Corrie you plant a grove of trees on a beautiful open hillside (of which there are countless in our area). But if you want to continue the <em>spirit</em> of Rachel Corrie's work of trying to be a thorn in the side of the occupiers and thwart/provoke them at every turn... then planting the trees on or right next to a Jewish farmer's land is the way to go. If the latter was the case then one can't pretend surprise and dismay when the provocation has the desired effect.</p>PP commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eaca788332006-04-03T06:22:10Z2008-02-14T04:43:39ZPPhttp://goingslightlymad.blogspot.comI 100% understand and applaud your motives behind writing this piece, even though it makes me uneasy for different reasons...<p>I 100% understand and applaud your motives behind writing this piece, even though it makes me uneasy for different reasons than expressed by your other commenters. I also heartily agree with Lisa: it is a shame that the twist wasn't that Ibrahim-the-Arab's wife teaches your child piano!</p>
<p>Also, just to clarify re your reply to Mobius, while Ta'ayush do have some internationals participating in their activities (which might explain the German/Dutch) they remain very much an Israeli-Palestinian organization. </p>Tonny commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eacbd88332006-04-03T06:03:48Z2008-02-14T04:43:40ZTonnyhttp://karbannesanel.blogspot.comwow, that was amazing Mr B. yeah im with scott and shmutzy (and whoever else who said like they did)...<p>wow, that was amazing Mr B.</p>
<p>yeah im with scott and shmutzy (and whoever else who said like they did) on this one. i was with ibrahim from the beginning.</p>shmutzy commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eaa7088332006-04-03T04:37:37Z2008-02-14T04:43:18ZshmutzyIt's curious - the whole time I sympathized with Ibrahim, but I had a much more adverse reaction to the...<p>It's curious - the whole time I sympathized with Ibrahim, but I had a much more adverse reaction to the people planting the trees when you said they were Palestinian sympathizers rather than American Jewish tourists.</p>
<p>You've made a good point.</p>
<p>I wish "Ibrahim" the best.</p>Scott commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eab7988332006-04-03T02:15:19Z2008-02-14T04:43:29ZScottI thought I passed the test. I was pretty ticked at those 'Jews' who planted those trees. However .... when...<p>I thought I passed the test. I was pretty ticked at those 'Jews' who planted those trees. However .... when you pulled the switcheroo I was not as ticked at the Arabs. I expect such crap out of Arabs. Also I figure the wronged actual Jewish farmer will get his tractor back and his land will be confirmed as his. If it had been the poor Arab farmer in the original story he would have probably been permanently screwed. So I didn't really pass. </p>yetanother commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052334f88342006-04-03T01:35:14Z2008-02-14T04:43:04ZyetanotherI agree that this post would make a greate oped, so I looked up how to submit opeds to some...<p>I agree that this post would make a greate oped, so I looked up how to submit opeds to some of the major newspapers that I read.</p>
<p>Baltimore Sun http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bal-op.contribute,0,2442458.story?coll=bal-oped-headlines<br />
Washington Post<br />
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/03/31/AR2005033118511.html<br />
New York Times<br />
http://www.nytimes.com/ref/membercenter/help/opedsubmit.html</p>
<p>You should be able to find info on how to submit to other newspapers on the oped pages of their websites.</p>
<p>This story could also make a terrific NPR radio commentary (they're looking for "commentaries or essays that tell a tale, reveal a personal reflection, or add an informed perspective to events in the news." which really fits the bill)<br />
http://www.npr.org/about/pitch/commentary.html</p>
<p>B'hatzlacha!</p>orthomom commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5505233bb88342006-04-03T00:36:28Z2008-02-14T04:43:08Zorthomomhttp://www.orthomom.blogspot.comGreat post. But honestly, I didn't feel any more sympathy after reading you clarifications than I did before. I wish...<p>Great post. But honestly, I didn't feel any more sympathy after reading you clarifications than I did before. I wish I could say it's all because of my complete lack of bias, but I think a major point to take into account here is that you wrote the account with a clearly presented notion of who the wronged party was, and the frustration that led him to take the law into his own hands was presented as understandable. On the other hand, when we read news accounts that simply state facts - or more often, skew the facts due to one bias or the other, it's hard to see things clearly, and that's when our biases tend to take over.</p>Ezer Knegdo commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eabe188332006-04-03T00:24:21Z2008-02-14T04:43:33ZEzer Knegdohttp://ezerknegdo.blogspot.comVery thought provoking post. Still thinking. Don't think anyone should take the law into their own hands, but what would...<p>Very thought provoking post. Still thinking. Don't think anyone should take the law into their own hands, but what would I do? i don't know. I honestly don't know.</p>treppenwitz commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5505236d688342006-04-02T21:18:55Z2008-02-14T04:43:37Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.comSarah... You'll likely see the outcome in the news. I'm glad you found the post thought-provoking, Seth... I'm often guilty...<p>Sarah... You'll likely see the outcome in the news. I'm glad you found the post thought-provoking,</p>
<p>Seth... I'm often guilty of choosing sides by topic rather than the merits of the case,,, that's what this post was about. I am also sometimes guilty of second-guessing my conclusions when certain people enjoy my posts. :-) I see I have to work on that as well.</p>
<p>Jaime... I got the idea for this type of post while arguing with a truly vile human being on a really anti-Israel/anti-Jewish blog. I found that I could reverse myself and the denizens of this blog would still take me to task, They sincerely thought they were attacking my position but they were simply keeping their guns aimed at me. When this story came up I knew it would be the perfect vehicle due to the small scale of the conflict and the complexity of the topic.</p>
<p>Chedva... you hit the nail on the head with your last word; Rational. It is the one thing that everyone thinks they are but almost nobody truly is. </p>
<p>Seawitch... I was deliberately ambiguous about this point because I do not know where the boundaries of his property lie nor exactly where the trees were planted. As a private citizen this is fine, but the police were in no better situation when called. Both Jews and Arabs will make the claim that more often than not any baseless claim made about them by the other will be acted upon by the police. I know of no statistical analysis of this point that has ever been done. I do know that the burden of proof and 'innocent until proven guilty' are not well used proverbs here in this neighborhood no matter if you are Muslim or Jew.</p>
<p>Irina... I agree that most of us have that tendency. But the point of my post was to see if I could bring out any sympathy for an unlikely hero. I'm pleased that many of you were able to mentally make the switch... even if as you say, the fit wasn't the same on both sides of the issue.</p>
<p>Essie... It helped me even as I was writing it.</p>
<p>Alan... If you know an agent or an editor that can put up with a writer that has no patience to revise or edit... I'll submit anywhere you advise. :-)</p>
<p>Enzo... I'll assume you found this thought provoking since not even I read that slow. :-) Glad you liked it.</p>
<p>Amechad... If you now consider yourself right I must have missed a significant sea change in your thinking. I had you pigeon-holed as a lefty! :-) Regardless of how you classify yourself it is good that you are politically ambidextrous.</p>
<p>Lisa... I thought of that too... which is why I dealt separately with the fact that he was not a gardener... and then that he was not an Arab. Personally I'm just as troubled that there are so few Jewish 'tradesman' and skilled laborers. I feel vaguely like a taskmaster when I see Arabs doing such work for Jews.</p>
<p>Lynn B. ... you make a valid point but I feel I should point out that I am biased... even when I sound reasonable. As i pointed out earlier, by sidestepping the crucial issue of exactly where the trees were planted and which trees were torn up I have allowed the reader to fill in many of the 'facts' from their own desires and prejudices. This wasn't really fair of me but it was necessary for the trick to work. The important thing is not to avoid biased sources but rather to read critically and with intellectual honesty.</p>
<p>Judy... Of course there are always options. No matter how people may say they were pushed to act rashly because of despair or 'circumstances', they almost always have an ulterior motive... and a clear sense of what they are doing. This isn't a bad thing if you honestly think you are on the side of the angels... but it can cause problems when the angels and law diverge.</p>
<p>Muse... I am still scratching my head over why Jews can be legitimately cleared from an area but the very idea of doing the same to any other ethnicity is morally repugnant.</p>
<p>Oscar... Your first statement indicates that you have the ability to set aside your prejudices, Your last statement suggests you don't always do so. :-)</p>
<p>Max... Thanks.</p>
<p>Seattle... Nowhere in my post did I suggest that the tree planters were acting in bad faith. At worst I suggested that they were likely manipulated, but even that requires a knowledge of the property lines and legal niceties that I clearly lack. Rather than answer your question directly, let me say that the police in Judea and Samaria are tasked with not just enforcing a Hodge-podge of Israeli, Turkish Israeli military and British Mandate law... but they are also called upon to act arbitrarily to head off potentially dangerous confrontations. This sometimes means acting on a complaint just to defuse a situation and then letting the system sort itself out. I did not mean to imply that the police were the bad guys here.</p>
<p>Tracey... I know it may have sounded that way, but I honestly don't think 'Ibrahim' acted out of anger. Often people find that it is more effective to act than to ask the authorities to act for them. In many cases the authorities may say "Yes you're right but it would cause too much trouble to try to set things back to the way they were." This is the primary reason both sides take such pains to create 'facts on the ground'.</p>
<p>Hashkaficallylost... What you have described is no less biased than someone who thinks the worst of the Arabs. That isn't a criticism... just a suggestion that you have work still to do on that.</p>
<p>Wanderer... Just to play devil's advocate: did the tree planters (or whoever sent them) take the law any less into their hands? Ripping up trees gets our attention because it a violent action, but planting trees in a place over which you have no rights in order to try to change the appearance of ownership is also playing fast and loose with legality.</p>
<p>Ezzie... As tempting as it may be to 'make seder' and assign blame or suggest a course of action, the point of the post was that even someone like myself who is very close to the story is not in possession of the most important facts. I was/am relying on hearsay and second-hand information. At the outset so are the police. That your first instinct was to try to sort it all out is admirable... but hopelessly doomed.</p>
<p>Esther... And I'm still looking for an agent. :-)</p>
<p>Randi... I'm a shepherd. But thanks. :-)</p>
<p>Sarah... First of all the police are often more interested in restoring order than adjudicating land disputes. Both sides have been guilty of creating facts on the ground to bolster their case in future settlements. I'd have to say that the Palestinians are no better or worse at it than we are. However, in the present political climate they are often given a much lighter burden of proof than we are. Again, this is based on my perceptions and not any organized survey of recent legal decisions.</p>
<p>Mobius... a) I have first-hand accounts of people speaking German and/or Dutch. We are both relying on other people for information here. b) It makes no difference if the trees were in memory of Rachel Corrie or the children killed at Ma'a'lot, If they were planted accidentally or deliberately on someone else's land it can be considered a provocation. With all the trackless open areas in this region where trees could have been planted it seems strange that they should choose to plant them so close to, or on, the land of a Bat Ayin farmer, I think we can both agree based on your description of who the group doing the planting was that they were not extending an olive branch to Bat Ayin with their trees. c) Alleged. Again we are both pissing in the wind here. A surveyor and a court will decide this point. d) An interesting fact... and maybe even a significant one. But it makes you sound an awful lot like a lawyer trying to lay the groundwork for a motive. e) You and I are talking to people who are not privy to what went on in 'Ibrahims' head. Speculate all you like but 'people I've talked to' and 'commenters on my blog' are not a very compelling witness list. f) I never suggested he did go quietly into that good night. In fact I think I made it clear he was quite agitated. You may argue whether his agitation was justified. g) He is not my friend and I really only know his wife. I am neither defending nor condemning here. The point of my post was actually that there is plenty of blame to go around.</p>
<p>Emanuel Ben-Zion... Unfortunately EVERYTHING here is tied to politics. </p>
<p>Mordy... You were fortunate to have some good experiences and teachers. The bad actors in this part of the world tend to have had bad versions of both.</p>
<p>Lisoosh... Thanks. But where did your sympathies fall? :-)</p>
<p>Aliza... One thing I've learned in my short time here is that nobody holds the patent on suffering. I'm glad you enjoyed the mental exercise of the post. I'll try to follow up as the case progresses and real facts (not hearsay and conjecture) emerge.</p>Aliza commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5505232ea88342006-04-02T21:10:52Z2008-02-14T04:43:01ZAlizahttp://alizapalooza.blogspot.com/Wow. Thank you so much for doing that. I consider myself right wing, but have built some strong connections with...<p>Wow. Thank you so much for doing that. I consider myself right wing, but have built some strong connections with Israeli Arabs due to my time at Hebrew U, and was becoming more and more upset as I read your story. It increased tenfold when I read the "minor details" which you corrected. One of the biggest problems is minimising Jewish suffering, and your story is one which skillfully highlights this. Kol Hakavod and keep us posted as to how he is doing, and if we can do anything to help. </p>Lisoosh commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eaa2188332006-04-02T20:59:24Z2008-02-14T04:43:15ZLisooshNice post, and very well written. I actually found myself focusing less on the story and more on the sympathy...<p>Nice post, and very well written.<br />
I actually found myself focusing less on the story and more on the sympathy that you portrayed.</p>Mordy commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5505233eb88342006-04-02T20:41:38Z2008-02-14T04:43:09ZMordyRefreshing post! After spending my two years in yeshiva in israel, i realized that as you say, nothing is ever...<p>Refreshing post!<br />
After spending my two years in yeshiva in israel, i realized that as you say, nothing is ever really black and white in that part of the world. although it didn't occur to me outright. only after the many tremping experiences and spending shabbos and visitng many different interesting neighborhoods, moshavim, "settlements", outposts, and whatever other types of neighborhoods exist, was i able to realize the far reaching shades of grey that exist in the view of the israel dweller. and i'm glad i have come to that conclusion.<br />
One particular experience that rings with me to this day is a hitch-hiking story that took place maybe my third week in the country.<br />
I was waiting at the hitching post of the moshav where my yeshiva was located, trying to get a ride to jerusalem. a kid looking about the age of 15 approaches the hitching post. being my third week in the country, i couldn't really judge whether this kid was from the moshav, from jerusalem, or even if he was jewish. i was pretty curious of everything around me in israel when i first got there, so i tried to engage him in conversation. since i didn't speak a word of hebrew, we communicated through his broken english. i started off asking him why he wasn't in school right now, seeing as it was early in the afternoon on a regular weekday. he proceeds to whip out of his pocket a BIG wad of shekel and somehow gets across the message that instead of being in school, he works. as the conversation goes on, im able to understand him better and better somehow, and i gather that he's a brick layer and he is in fact 15 years old. when i ask him if he's thinking about the army yet, i lose him. after several attempts to figure out what he's talking about, he takes out his teuda zehut and shows me where it says religion, only asterisks instead of "yehudi". OOOOOOOOOOHHHHHH! YOU'RE A....! oh, an arab, hmmmm... very interesting i'm thinking to myself. hmmm, doesn't seem like such a bad guy! so we move right along... he's from east jerusalem, he's been working with bricks for a year and he loves it because he's making very good cash. then i ask him why isn't he in school like his friends. this is the answer i get, "friends in school, learn israel not real, i work get bayed by israeli. why learn not real?"<br />
Of course, this being only the third week in the country, i had no idea the deeper meaning behind that. this is before i knew anything about the pa, the plo, before i read "they must go" by R' Kahane, before i knew the difference between fatah and hamas. basically i went to israel knowing absolutely nothing about the country, cuz frankly, when i was in high school, i wasn't too interested in anything of any value. however, little did i know that i'd be learning a huge and valuable lesson in foreign poilitics from a 15 year old east jerusalem brick layer.<br />
The story ends off that the kid says he likes me and tells me his friend is coming to pick him up in his cab to give him a ride back to jerusalem. he offers me a ride, i accept, and we spend the car ride talking about the rolling stones.<br />
Basically, after those two years in israel, i had come to a conclusion that the only thing i was able to say was black and white was that there are good people in this world and there are bad people in this world. it doesn't matter where you're from, what religion you are, or anything else. you're either a good person, or a bad person. but ya know what, this post clearly and accurately points out that, in truth, even good and bad have their shades of grey. i have realized this as well in my recent visits to israel and with what i continue to learn about the land. and after all this, i have come down to one hope, and that is that we all try to be as pure of heart as possible in order to make the right decisions in every situation that G-d throws our way.</p>Emanuel Ben-Zion commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052337b88342006-04-02T19:16:42Z2008-02-14T04:43:06ZEmanuel Ben-Zionhttp://jewishnation.blogspot.comGood post. I understand what you are saying. Politics are sometimes the worst aspects of the human nature<p>Good post. I understand what you are saying. Politics are sometimes the worst aspects of the human nature</p>mobius commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eaa9788332006-04-02T19:12:18Z2008-02-14T04:43:20Zmobiushttp://www.orthodoxanarchist.coma) it was not internationals who planted those trees, it was ta'ayush, a joint israeli-palestinian anti-occupation group, working with villagers...<p>a) it was not internationals who planted those trees, it was ta'ayush, a joint israeli-palestinian anti-occupation group, working with villagers from tzaffa.</p>
<p>b) the trees were planted in memory of rachel corrie, on the anniversary of her death, and the notion that they were planted to create facts on the ground is pure speculation from a biased, politicized source, who lives in a settlement with a history of anti-arab terrorism.</p>
<p>c) the area of the wadi in which the trees were planted is alleged to have been jnf property, and not ferenzi's property.</p>
<p>d) the weekend the trees were planted, two terror attacks were attempted against settlers in bat ayin, following years of relative calm. the suspects, who are presently in custody, are from tzaffa.</p>
<p>e) those from bat ayin whom i have spoken with, and others who have commented on my blog (as i've been following this story as it's developed) say that they believe it is retribution for the attacks. their view is that if the palestinians push them, and they don't push back, it will invite more attacks. therefore they have welcomed and condoned ferenzi's actions. the land-owernship debate appears to be a cover story.</p>
<p>f) contrary to <a href="http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=101192" rel="nofollow">arutz sheva's reportage</a>, ferenzi did not go quietly -- dozens of bat ayin residents surrounded his house to prevent the idf from arresting him. they only allowed the police to take him into custody after they promised this would not count as an arrest on his record.</p>
<p>i can understand your desire to support and defend your friend, but i would caution you not to accept the story at face value. there is more in play here than meets the eye.</p>Sarah commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ea96488332006-04-02T19:12:10Z2008-02-14T04:43:09ZSarahhttp://www.chayyeisarah.blogspot.comI think I'm missing something. If "Ibrahim" has a deed showing that he tore off trees from HIS OWN land,...<p>I think I'm missing something. If "Ibrahim" has a deed showing that he tore off trees from HIS OWN land, then how was he "taking the law into his own hands"? Or was he uprooting trees outside of his land? Or does he not have a deed? I'm confused now.</p>Randi(cruisin-mom) commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052345488342006-04-02T18:58:35Z2008-02-14T04:43:13ZRandi(cruisin-mom)http://cruisin-mom.blogspot.comTrepp: You should be a college professor (are you one?, I just realized I don't know what you do for...<p>Trepp: You should be a college professor (are you one?, I just realized I don't know what you do for a living). That is an amazing way to present a story, to really analyze our true feelings. Thank you for such a thought provoking post.</p>esther commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052341e88342006-04-02T18:43:26Z2008-02-14T04:43:12Zestherhttp://outsidetheblogway.blogspot.com/Great post. I'm with the others who suggest you submit it to media outlets.<p>Great post. I'm with the others who suggest you submit it to media outlets.</p>Ezzie commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eabe488332006-04-02T18:22:46Z2008-02-14T04:43:33ZEzziehttp://serandez.blogspot.comAnother 'pat on the back' commenter... I felt sympathetic to Ibrahim, and those who planted the tree were in the...<p>Another 'pat on the back' commenter... I felt sympathetic to Ibrahim, and those who planted the tree were in the wrong. On the other hand, Ibrahim did take the law (wrongly) into his own hands, and for that I felt he should be punished.</p>
<p>And I'm sorry to say, me feelings don't change when it's the reverse. As wrong as it is for the Europeans to plant the trees (and if they did something illegal, they should be prosecuted and deported), and as bad as I do feel for anyone who is living through this, I don't think taking the laws into my own hands accomplishes very much, and assuming it's illegal, the tractor owner should not be surprised to be prosecuted for it. If a person wants to take the law into their own hands, that means they are willing to face the consequences of doing so. If you feel that what you're doing is right, and is worth the consequences, fine - by all means, do it. But don't complain later about what happens.</p>
<p>Should the soldiers have reacted differently? I'm not sure - remember, they are reacting to a person who just took the law into his own hands. It could be he's perfectly normal; but it could be he's perfectly extreme and willing to do even more. Perhaps they started off too strongly, perhaps not.</p>
<p>Regardless, David, this was a brilliant piece, and you <i>should</i> submit this as others have suggested to a major newspaper or newsmag. I wonder how many people will feel guilty when they finish it. </p>wanderer commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eaa0f88332006-04-02T17:58:49Z2008-02-14T04:43:15Zwandererhttp://treatmelikeadog.blogspot.comExcellent, thought-provoking post. I think Judy nailed it. The important, universal issue here is that Avraham/Ibrahim took the law into...<p>Excellent, thought-provoking post.</p>
<p>I think Judy nailed it. The important, universal issue here is that Avraham/Ibrahim took the law into his own hands. It is also important to note that you pointed out the boundaries of his property are being disputed, and therefore his "right" to tear down the trees is also in dispute.</p>
<p>The police may have acted inappropriately, and too strongly. Those of us who watch "Cops" here in the U.S. know that nothing escalates the situation with the police more than a person who becomes increasingly "animated" and "agitated," especially in the midst of a confrontation. This applies anywhere in the world where the rule of law is respected, including Israel. </p>
<p>Either way, the trees which were truly planted illegally should be removed and his tractor returned after appropriate and speedy due process. It shouldn't cost him anything either. </p>HashkaficallyLost commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052340488342006-04-02T17:44:04Z2008-02-14T04:43:11ZHashkaficallyLosthttp://www.hashkficallylost.blogspot.comI too am giving myself a pat on the back, as when I was reading this I felt an utter...<p>I too am giving myself a pat on the back, as when I was reading this I felt an utter disappointment and embarrassment for what "my people" did-and I was totally sympathetic to Ibrahim's plight. The problem is, even after I finished the article, I still unfortunately feel that the first situation is one that could very VERY possibly could have happened, and as much as I try to be dan lcaf zchus, my gut reaction is that the Israelis would have still acted in the same embarrassing way. </p>Tracey commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ea98a88332006-04-02T17:32:49Z2008-02-14T04:43:10ZTraceyhttp://thsprague.blogspot.com/I do not live in Israel and I can only imagine what it must feel like to have to deal...<p>I do not live in Israel and I can only imagine what it must feel like to have to deal with terrorism, etc., but. I also believe the land should be in the possession of the Jewish people.</p>
<p>Having said this, I did feel much sympathy for Ibrahim and felt his land was truly being stolen (either by accident or on purpose). I have no problem (at least I don't think so) when the facts are presented discerning what the legalities are and who is in the "right". </p>
<p>I could also understand why Ibrahim would do what he did, although if he had controlled his temper and at least tried to talk to the authorities I would think it would have gone better for him and his family.</p>
<p>I can think of a couple places in Torah where G-d makes it clear that moving boundary stones is seen by him as wrong. I know that these instructions were primarily between Hebrew and Hebrew, but would it still not apply?</p>
<p>Anyway, that's my two cents. </p>Seattle commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052355388342006-04-02T17:27:23Z2008-02-14T04:43:23ZSeattleNice. When I read the story, I thought the tree planters were likely well-meaning, and that the farmer, Ibrahim, while...<p>Nice. When I read the story, I thought the tree planters were likely well-meaning, and that the farmer, Ibrahim, while perhaps rash, had every right to do whatever he might want to on his land, without anyone else's permission. The authorities were right to have visited, but once informed that it was Ibrahim's land, were bound to treat him with that respect, until it could be be verifed otherwise by legal documents.</p>
<p>In Israel, may I ask, is there the same foundation in the law which states: "innocent until proven guilty?" In any case, it was unprofessional to taunt someone you are arresting. The job should be limited to maintaining order, gathering facts, and letting the law continue the process before judge and jury. No matter what side of the mirror people live, they should be able to look to the authority and law and trust that they will be treated in fairness.</p>max commented on 'Ibrahim's mirror'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ea81088332006-04-02T17:25:57Z2008-02-14T04:42:57ZmaxExcellent.<p>Excellent.</p>