Comments on Individual vs. Insitutional wrongdoingTypePad2006-02-23T15:09:17ZDavid Bognerhttps://www.treppenwitz.com/tag:typepad.com,2003:https://www.treppenwitz.com/2006/02/individual_vs_i/comments/atom.xml/tnspr569 commented on 'Individual vs. Insitutional wrongdoing'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5505233ea88342006-02-26T22:15:10Z2008-02-14T04:43:09Ztnspr569I'm not saying it's cool or anything like that. I wasn't even aware of the fact that you wore it...<p>I'm not saying it's cool or anything like that. I wasn't even aware of the fact that you wore it all the time. Is it required of you as a member of your local security force (wrong term, I know...)? I was saying you rock just in general- I didn't think that you liked that part of the description upon which I commented.</p>treppenwitz commented on 'Individual vs. Insitutional wrongdoing'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ea62788332006-02-26T20:16:53Z2008-02-14T04:42:31Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.comtnspr569... Trust me when I tell you it loses a lot of its coolness when you have to wear this...<p>tnspr569... Trust me when I tell you it loses a lot of its coolness when you have to wear this uncomfortable hunk of metal on your belt all the time. I would much rather do without.</p>tnspr569 commented on 'Individual vs. Insitutional wrongdoing'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ea5d488332006-02-26T05:17:32Z2008-02-14T04:42:27Ztnspr569not to make a comment that seems a little out of place, given the weight of the discussion at hand,...<p>not to make a comment that seems a little out of place, given the weight of the discussion at hand, but i like how you nonchalantly slipped into your description of your appearance the part about the "pistol stuffed into" your "wasteband"...not many people can pull off writing that description as you have. as always, you rock!!!</p>treppenwitz commented on 'Individual vs. Insitutional wrongdoing'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ea69d88332006-02-25T21:28:09Z2008-02-14T04:42:38Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.comPresident... And that's where you stepped in it. My post wasn't about perceptions, it was about the law. Private citizens...<p>President... And that's where you stepped in it. My post wasn't about perceptions, it was about the law. Private citizens represent only themselves. Police and army represent the government... even when acting against orders or illegally.</p>
<p>jsinger... Like president, you have taken it upon yourself to ignore my post and spew wrong-headed crap to further your own agenda. First of all, I think you are using the term 'institutional' in place of 'systemic'. I used the term institutional to describe a government institution where individual acts still legally reflect on all members of the same group.</p>
<p>But even if you had not experienced vocabulary trouble, you would still be dead wrong. The disengagement from Gaza and all the associated demonstrations went off with almost no violent incidents. Those incidents that did take place were loudly denounced by the settler leadership and placed under a microscope by the press. If you were willing to look at the number of people who took part in demonstrations and the actual disengagement vs. the number of actual documented acts of violence, you would come up with a tiny percentage... far from systemic (or institutional). The government and the press has painted a picture of settlers as dangerous/violent that has no basis in reality. Isolated incidents are not how one determines the nature of an entire group... unless one is predisposed to bigotry.</p>JSinger commented on 'Individual vs. Insitutional wrongdoing'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ea6ce88332006-02-24T15:49:53Z2008-02-14T04:42:42ZJSingerI knew if I left the comments open people would ignore the central issue of individual vs. institutional wrongdoing and...<p><i>I knew if I left the comments open people would ignore the central issue of individual vs. institutional wrongdoing and use it as a springboard for their own agendas... and I was right.</i></p>
<p>The point is that organized settler mayhem *is* institutional. The nut who threw his dog out the window a few days ago is a case of individual wrongdoing, not Amona.</p>President, Kippot Srugot for Kadima commented on 'Individual vs. Insitutional wrongdoing'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ea63b88332006-02-24T11:04:43Z2008-02-14T04:42:32ZPresident, Kippot Srugot for KadimaLast comment: if you re-read my comments you will see that I was doing my best to talk about how...<p>Last comment: if you re-read my comments you will see that I was doing my best to talk about how others |(leftists, centrists and policemen) perceive the Right, not about the actual facts.</p>
<p>I was asking you to ask yourself: "why are we perceived this way and are our current actions helping or hurting us in light of the way the political winds are blowing?"</p>
<p>Only then, to paraphrase my first comment to this post, will middle israel be reminded by your actions as heroes of the State that you are heroes of the State.</p>treppenwitz commented on 'Individual vs. Insitutional wrongdoing'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052321688342006-02-24T08:55:28Z2008-02-14T04:42:51Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.comPresident... 2/3 if you're not very good at math. The split between those who support the settlers and those who...<p>President... 2/3 if you're not very good at math. The split between those who support the settlers and those who appose them is actually pretty closely matched. And yes, while this is a place where people can express themselves freely, I get to chose the topics. If every time I post about anything political you take it as an invitation to lie, exaggerate and vilify... well, I've already told you what I think.</p>
<p>Scott... Don't take this as an invitation to act up. :-)</p>Scott commented on 'Individual vs. Insitutional wrongdoing'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ea8af88332006-02-24T08:25:41Z2008-02-14T04:43:03ZScottGee, for once it wasn't ME gettin yelled at. I've plumbed the recesses of my mind (shallow as it may...<p>Gee, for once it wasn't ME gettin yelled at. </p>
<p>I've plumbed the recesses of my mind (shallow as it may be) and I can't come up with the smallest shred of an excuse for what those govt. agents did to those kids. </p>President, Kippot Srugot for Kadima commented on 'Individual vs. Insitutional wrongdoing'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550522fe588342006-02-24T07:55:52Z2008-02-14T04:42:23ZPresident, Kippot Srugot for KadimaGot it. I thought this was an open forum where everyone is heard. But I guess the viewpoint of 2/3...<p>Got it. I thought this was an open forum where everyone is heard. But I guess the viewpoint of 2/3 of the Israeli electorate is based on denial and therefore not worth listening to. That is why the Right has become the minority.</p>treppenwitz commented on 'Individual vs. Insitutional wrongdoing'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5505230db88342006-02-24T06:42:37Z2008-02-14T04:42:35Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.comI knew if I left the comments open people would ignore the central issue of individual vs. institutional wrongdoing and...<p>I knew if I left the comments open people would ignore the central issue of individual vs. institutional wrongdoing and use it as a springboard for their own agendas... and I was right.</p>
<p>President... You seem like a very bright guy and I would hate to lose you as a reader or commenter. But you are so deep in denial about certain things that I'm going to have to ask you to just take a break from treppenwitz for a while. </p>
<p>First of all, I don't give a rat's ass what happens in Africa or China. Is that really the standard to which you hold the Israeli government? </p>
<p>And as for "<em>Whether it be against Palestinian children throwing gasoline bombs or settler children throwing unknown (from the viewpoint of the cop) substances, it was in self defense."</em> Are you rocked in the head? Again with the acid libels????? I can't remember EVER hearing such a bone-headed blanket statement in my life! </p>
<p>And to your parting shot of "<em>Now, we can all criticize the level of froce[sic] used in such self defense and whether it was reasonable in light of the circumstances, but we won't know since we weren't there."</em>.. I've watched the film of the entire incident from beginning to end. I've spoken with people who WERE ACTUALLY THERE! The police in Amona came out and used inappropriate and illegal force against the settlers... and no amount of equivocating will change that. </p>
<p>I am so angry right now that someone so intelligent could be so willingly obtuse about such a basic aspect of democracy. Your distaste for the settlers has tainted every last trace of your common sense and I would respectfully ask that you take your wisdom somewhere else for a while. </p>President, Kippot Srugot for Kadima commented on 'Individual vs. Insitutional wrongdoing'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052329c88342006-02-24T06:24:30Z2008-02-14T04:42:58ZPresident, Kippot Srugot for KadimaQuote from Scott: "Israelis are generally a people who can accept, for political reasons, state instituted extreme violence against children."...<p>Quote from Scott: "Israelis are generally a people who can accept, for political reasons, state instituted extreme violence against children."</p>
<p>First of all, you haven't been watching the news over the past few decades if you think a few smacks with a baton is "extreme violence". See what they do to demonstrators in Africa, China, the Ukraine, Uzbekistan and other places and then talk about extreme violence.</p>
<p>Second of all, none of the violence against children has been "state instituted". Whether it be against Palestinian children throwing gasoline bombs or settler children throwing unknown (from the viewpoint of the cop) substances, it was in self defense. Now, we can all criticize the level of froce used in such self defense and whether it was reasonable in light of the circumstances, but we won't know since we weren't there.</p>Seattle commented on 'Individual vs. Insitutional wrongdoing'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ea58488332006-02-24T04:55:55Z2008-02-14T04:42:24ZSeattleTreppenwitz - Well written I thought. While I know you don't need anyone's approval, I figure you are curious what...<p>Treppenwitz - Well written I thought. While I know you don't need anyone's approval, I figure you are curious what people think when they read your works.</p>Scott commented on 'Individual vs. Insitutional wrongdoing'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052322f88342006-02-24T02:39:46Z2008-02-14T04:42:53ZScottLisoosh, Uh, like at ...... Amona. Have you bothered to look at the videos or read the statements of the...<p>Lisoosh,</p>
<p>Uh, like at ...... Amona. Have you bothered to look at the videos or read the statements of the kids who report just sitting down waiting for the police and they were struck, kicked and stepped on as if they were brick throwers? Granted some kids on the roofs threw some stuff. I think Davids point is that this in no way gave the goons ...er .... police license to go after ever kid there with deadly force.</p>
<p>in general: It looks to me, from this distance, given these comments, like Israelis are generally a people who can accept, for political reasons, state instituted extreme violence against children. What's next? Just shoot them in the streets?</p>Lisoosh commented on 'Individual vs. Insitutional wrongdoing'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052300b88342006-02-23T21:39:30Z2008-02-14T04:42:25ZLisoosh"When a religious settler throws a potentially lethal brick at a policeman during a demonstration, far too many otherwise intelligent...<p>"When a religious settler throws a potentially lethal brick at a policeman during a demonstration, far too many otherwise intelligent people in this country mentally respond by condoning collective punishment against all religious settlers who demonstrate (however peacefully) against the government and its representatives." </p>
<p>I feel that that I am missing something (due to reading/listening to overseas news sources) when I read the above statement. In which way have religious settlers as a group been subjected to collective punishment for the actions of a few? </p>JSinger commented on 'Individual vs. Insitutional wrongdoing'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5505230f188342006-02-23T20:34:40Z2008-02-14T04:42:36ZJSingerIn fact the leadership of the settler movement has been consistently and outspokenly critical of any violent acts and/or incitement....<p><i>In fact the leadership of the settler movement has been consistently and outspokenly critical of any violent acts and/or incitement.</i></p>
<p>I'm far from a leftist, and it's unclear to me that the Yesha Council and all but the most moderate settler leadership have the slightest genuine concern about violence against Israelis, let alone against Palestinians. Sure, they make their perfunctory disclaimers, but until they make it crystal clear that the people and communities drivng the violence are persona non grata, it's meaningless to me.</p>
<p>None of which, of course, is an excuse for any police misconduct or the failure to investigate it.</p>Jack commented on 'Individual vs. Insitutional wrongdoing'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ea56688332006-02-23T19:03:12Z2008-02-14T04:42:23ZJackhttp://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/From where I sit I see an awful lot of fingerpointing from both sides. It would be productive if there...<p>From where I sit I see an awful lot of fingerpointing from both sides.</p>
<p>It would be productive if there was more listening and less talk, but I don't expect to see that happen.</p>Irina commented on 'Individual vs. Insitutional wrongdoing'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550522fff88342006-02-23T18:35:39Z2008-02-14T04:42:24ZIrinahttp://sicat222.blogspot.comThis is increasingly troubling, and the most troubling part about it is that the law is appearing more and more...<p>This is increasingly troubling, and the most troubling part about it is that the law is appearing more and more ambiguous and amorphous. If people/government agents feel free to act in such a manner, it means the system of legal redress of grievances is not functioning properly, and neither is a system of checks and balances which keeps law from being abused by government agents. I just hope this doesn't spread any further. Obviously, it would be extremely naive to suggest depoliticizing the law altogether, but some steps need to be taken to make sure that everyone has a say in the legal process and there's no need for "independent action" of this sort. I am not familiar with Israeli legal system, nor who should do the oversight, considering how muddled politics tend to be in general, but perhaps people more familiar with the way it works, can make some constructive suggestions.</p>Ben-David commented on 'Individual vs. Insitutional wrongdoing'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052315488342006-02-23T17:24:16Z2008-02-14T04:42:43ZBen-David... there is also the "boy who cried wolf" aspect to this story: While the wrongdoing by the police officers...<p>... there is also the "boy who cried wolf" aspect to this story:</p>
<p>While the wrongdoing by the police officers was photographed and documented, we have no solid evidence as to who torched the car.</p>
<p>Given that the police tried to fudge the story of MK Eitam's injury just 2 weeks ago - a fudge that was only uncovered when a videotape of the entire event was replayed before the Knesset committee -<br />
and given the known use of agents provacateurs in the past to besmirch the settler movement, we should proceed with skepticism.</p>
<p>I know your intentions are noble, but I am quite weary/wary of those in the settler camp who quickly jump to denounce/renounce at the merest whiff of rumor. It's definitely a misstep in the PR game.</p>President, Kippot Srugot for Kadima commented on 'Individual vs. Insitutional wrongdoing'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ea74288332006-02-23T17:20:36Z2008-02-14T04:42:47ZPresident, Kippot Srugot for Kadima(I first typed out a "from the gut" comment, about settler hypocrisy in condemning violence from one side of the...<p>(I first typed out a "from the gut" comment, about settler hypocrisy in condemning violence from one side of the mouth and supporting it from the other and "what is undemocratic is the use of scare tactics and threats to block governmental laws supported openly by a clear majority of MKs and the Israeli public (according to most polls but we'll wait until March 29 to talk about that).</p>
<p>But then I realized that most of you don't want to hear that and it would only cause trouble and it would not connect us all, which is what this country needs most right now.</p>
<p>So instead, I erased all that so you wouldn't have to hear it and started posting constructively, I hope.)</p>
<p>Maybe I am a dupe and I have fallen for, and continue to believe, Sharon's propaganda machine. But in politics (and in other areas of life), truth is only secondary to the perception of truth (that is a quote I heard once but I don't remember who it is from; anyone?). And it is clear that the perception of truth in the Center and Left camps that seem to make up the majority of the Israeli voting public is that the settler leadership supports violence as a tool to stopping future disengagements. And that the settler leadership couldn't give a darn about the will of the people (which is about to reaffirm their belief in disengagements by a wide margin).</p>
<p>We see leaders of the Ye"sh council and right wing MKs at every hafganah, spewing hatred ("Olmert is bad for the Jews" sure made those of who support his policies (supporting him is harder than supporting his policies, I assure you) feel like your Jewish brothers - not). We hear them screaming about police tactics but we never hear them utter a word about those living illegally or burning cars or collecting cinder blocks before demonstrations. We hear them using "undemocratic" at every opportunity but ignoring the fact that the Gaza Disengagement was passed by the Knesset and that polling shows wide support for Kadima's policies.</p>
<p>Maybe, as Treppenwitz claims, they are condemning violence and asking, unequivocally, that future demonstrations are peaceful. But we just don't hear it. And maybe they will all lie down peacefully when the next withdrawal is voted on by the Knesset and implemented. But we didn't see it in Gaza.</p>
<p>And maybe we are selectively deaf, biased and stupid sheep blindly following a comatose hero. </p>
<p>That all may be true. But it is the perception we will take with us to the voting booths at the end of March. </p>
<p>If I am falling for it (I've posted before about my ex-Right ways and my settler relatives and my kippah srugah and, I want to add now, I believe we made a mistake not transferring the Palestinians in '67 and '73 when we had chances and excuses) then you really can't blame those pre-biased, secular policemen faced by the fear (right or wrong) of attack?I don't think they, or The Government, thinks that they are beating up on poor innocent peace-loving hippies. I think they think they are fighting fire with fire.<br />
<br />
The anti-disengagement camp and the settlers and the Right need to change their tactics. They need to get us to sympathize with them. That means clear, unequivocal obvious, on-the-side-of-buses statements that there will be no violence against policemen or soldiers. That means stopping their children from extremism (this is one tactic that really rubs us wrong). That means clear statements supporting Knesset votes. It means reminding us that you are heroes of the State by acting like heroes of the State.</p>
<p>Because if we all continue this polarized debate where only extreme views are held as valid then we will all lose. But those of us on the losing side of the population and the votes will lose the most.</p>dave commented on 'Individual vs. Insitutional wrongdoing'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ea55a88332006-02-23T16:49:27Z2008-02-14T04:42:23Zdavewhat does a citizen do when faced with a governmental agency perpetrating abuse, when the supervisor, upper echelons of government...<p>what does a citizen do when faced with a governmental agency perpetrating abuse, when the supervisor, upper echelons of government and courts condo such action?</p>