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Monday, August 01, 2005
Merging onto the Infobahn
I rarely ask my readers for help. I've even been mildly critical of bloggers who constantly shake their readers down for advice and/or technical assistance.
The truth is, I have gratefully accepted a few very helpful bits of timely advice/assistance from readers in the past... but I have been extremely reluctant to actively ask for help because it feels so much like cornering a doctor at a party for free medical advice.
In my experience, people who are very good at something, or extremely knowledgeable about a particular subject, have usually spent a significant amount of time and effort (not to mention money) acquiring that expertise.
Why would anyone assume that it's OK to take the easy way out and pester them for answers they were too lazy (or cheap) to find for themselves?
Well, I now realize that sometimes the answers being sought are subjective... and the only way to gain enough information to make an informed decision is to ask people to share some of their own hard-won experience.
That's what I am going to do today.
Our big kids are now 9 (almost 10) and 11 (and-a-half).
Unlike most of their friends, our kids do not have their own computers, and do not even have unfettered access to one. The reason for this is that Zahava and I are worried sick about the stuff to which kids can be exposed (by accident or design), on the Internet.
To provide a little background/perspective, our kids don't have unfettered access to the television either. They know they are allowed to watch National Geographic or one of the other 'nature' type channels without our permission. They also have a short list of shows they can watch without us in the room... and they can watch certain other programs so long as one of us is present.
Even with all of these viewing rules in place, we still worry about some of the things to which they are being exposed (i.e. some of the racier images in commercials).
However, we also know we can't figuratively hold our hands over their eyes forever. At a certain point the allure of forbidden fruit becomes stronger than any lessons we might have intended to teach them.
Their aunts, uncles and grandparents have been (rightfully) angry with us for not giving the kids an easy way to email and chat with their relatives overseas... and we worry that they are now at a disadvantage to their peers in terms of knowing their way around a computer.
So... now that I have a reliable new computer for myself, I am probably going to reformat my old 'puter and set it up in a place where the kids can use it to send/receive e-mail and surf the Web.
But before we take this step, I need to do what I mentioned at the outset and ask for some help/advice from my readers:
I need recommendations for software (e.g. Netnanny), to make an unsupervised computer as kid-safe as possible. I want something that will constantly update itself... but I'm not sure if I want or need something that will be totally invasive of the kid's privacy (e.g. allowing me to read all the kid's keystrokes and view all sites they've visited). I honestly don't know haw much protection I (they) need... and how much is too much.
I'm flying blind here people. I want the kids to have access to the wealth of information and fun that is out there in the Internet. I want them to be able to email and chat with friends and relatives. I can think of nothing more valuable than having both of them become more techno-Savvy than either of their parents.
But I don't want them to have to sacrifice their innocence to have all that!
I'm sure there is no perfect solution or magic bullet to keep them safe while using a computer... but I would deeply appreciate any advice you can offer that will allow Ari and Gili to merge safely onto the infobahn.
Posted by David Bogner on August 1, 2005 | Permalink
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I am not going to give you any technical clues or advise, your knowledge is far advanced then mine. (I think) But as a mother of 4 sons and grand mother of one, I think that after a 'serious talk' and explanation to the children of what is going to be alowed and what is absolutely forbidden, give then a 'trial' period. Using the 'kavod' system that was used in some schools in Israel during my childhood, so many years ago. Tell them :"I trust you kids are not going to break the rules, mummy and I have set for computer use" Review the history button of the computer initially every night, then once a week. I believe that will work. The children will know to act honourably and will appreciate being treated with respect. This has worked for me most of the time. I think/hope it will work for Zehava and yourself too.
behazlacha!
p.s.
How do I write to you with out having message printed?
Posted by: savta yaffa | Aug 1, 2005 1:49:13 PM
My kids are still a bit young for this, but one of the most important things I've heard is that the computer be in a public place, not a bedroom.
Posted by: Dave | Aug 1, 2005 2:25:58 PM
I second that. Keep it, for example, in the living room - the room with the most activity - so that anyone at anytime can see what they're doing.
Posted by: Fran | Aug 1, 2005 2:32:09 PM
Savta Yaffa... First of all let me say for the record that this is not about not trusting my kids. They both know that we trust them. The problem is that even the most benign search terms can return results from Google that would be damaging to a young child. There are also plenty of pop-up ads and spam that come looking for the viewer rather than waiting for the prurient viewer to come looking for it. I need something that will know the difference between one of their friend's INstant Messages and that of a pedophile in a chatroom. It should be able to tell the difference between a nature site about 'goats' and a shock site about 'goatse'... and keep my kids from stumbling into the wrong one. As far as contacting me privately, feel free to email me any time at the address listed on my 'about me' page.
Dave... I agree in theory, but we don't have a lot of room in the common rooms of the house... and we have a very destructive toddler roaming around who loves pulling on wires and pushing buttons. The most convenient spot for a computer will likely be in the mamad (reinforced shelter room) which we have turned into a mini library. It is what one might call a semi-private area of the house.
Fran... as I said to Dave, I agree that having the computer in a well travelled area is ideal from a deterrence standpoint... but logistically it will probably not work. Also, as I said to Savta Yaffa, most of this is not about trusting my kids, but rather worrying about things they can stumble upon accidentally. I can deal with my kid's curiosity... I need a software solution to meet active threats to their welfare and safety.
Posted by: David | Aug 1, 2005 3:00:36 PM
As a librarian, I can say that the software is only so so...in an attempt to avoid breasts, you loose access to breast cancer...etc..
There are also whitelist programs that let you pick the allowed sites. But that is also very restrictive.
The best way to start would be to give them e-mail accounts only using thunderbird or another e-mail only program, and see how it goes before adding web browsing.
Good luck, from someone who doesn't own a TV :)
Posted by: Safranit | Aug 1, 2005 3:17:39 PM
I don't have too much to add in the way advice, other than to second the advice you've already gotten about the importance of your interaction (public place, use open to review) as the best NetNanny.
One thing I would add though is that you don't have to worry about asking for advice from tech people. We aren't like dermotologists at a cocktail party asked to look at a worrisome mole after a long day. Yes it takes effort to learn this stuff, but the tech-geek-genome requires that that expertise be shared with the world, and proudly so. Having now asked for help, you will probably have so much advice you'll have to close your comments section for a few days until we all cool off and move on to the next blogger's style sheet issues.
But seriously, good luck.
Posted by: AbbaGav | Aug 1, 2005 3:19:27 PM
Just picked the brain of the person who works in PC Ideas, a shop here in West Yorkshire where I bought my last computer, the man there suggested 2 ways to handle problem. 1. Go to Internet Explorer, then to 'Internet Options' , 'Tools', then to 'Content adviser', there is here an option to disable 'naughties'.
2. Buy and load 'ciber patrol'it is a programme that runs in the background, will block out all words you wish to block. It sound slightly limited to me, as you have to think of all the naughty words likely to appear...but that was the advice given, Hope it is of help.
Posted by: savta yaffa | Aug 1, 2005 4:33:24 PM
I used to teach kindergarten and 1st grade and sometimes *gasp* we used the net. Of course the parents had to sign a permission form, and we bookmarked the specific page they all needed to go to. I stood at the back of the computer lab so that I could see every monitor. But I remember that there was some software that blocked lots of bad things. I'll check it out and get back to you.
I grew up with a TV - it was an old black and white thing that my mother would roll out of the closet for space shuttle launches, presidential debates, and such. My Dad did buy us a Commodore 64 at some point. He didn't have to worry about that machine doing anything "racy".
Posted by: John | Aug 1, 2005 4:44:57 PM
I would treat it like television. Bookmark the sights you will allow them to use and use the highest filtering programs. Teach them the rules of the road, ie. don't open email from a person you don't know, and, but not limited to, do not go to any links from the book mark page w/o parental permission.
The problem arises when they need to use a search engine. As a teacher I assign search engines that prefilter for kids, yahookids, ask jeeves, etc., or an adult must be with them when they use a search engine.
If you are intrested I can email you the how to know if a website is "kosher" that I give to my students.
It's a hard call but it can be done.
Posted by: Marjorie | Aug 1, 2005 7:31:45 PM
My boys are 10 and 11 now, and they have their own computers. When they started using the internet a few years ago, I installed NetNanny. It can watch out for web content, and it can also monitor/control chat-room activity. I wouldn't let a child access the internet without some such software. It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing.
There have been times they wanted to go to a site that NetNanny didn't allow. They ask me about it, I check out the site, and if I find it OK then I can add it to the list of 'OK' sites. If it's not OK, then it's a good teaching-moment.
The problem I've found with email is the amount of junk email that they eventually get. Most of it is harmless, but not all. The ISP I use has decent spam filtering, so it hasn't been too much of an issue, just annoying.
As already pointed out - talk to the kids about responsible use of the computer. I highly recommend that as a starting point, but would also say that filtering software is also a requirement, not optional.
Posted by: Steve Bogner | Aug 1, 2005 7:42:48 PM
For email can I recommend Hotmail? It's free, and you get what you pay for, of course, but I like the feature that allows you to receive messages in your inbox only from addresses that are in your address book. Any other message is sent to your junk mail folder, so you can review them, see if any shouldn't be "junk," and add the addresses to your address book. The beauty of the junk mail folder is that, if you open a message, images are blocked and hyperlinks are disabled. Not sure if it does anything to offensive text.
For web page filtering, if you already have an Internet Security suite, and you should, odds are that it has a web content control feature included. Send me an email and I'll give you a recommendation.
Posted by: Ralphie | Aug 1, 2005 7:56:06 PM
I can actually just chip in on the email thing.
Let me suggest that since you are using Firefox, you may want to choose Thunderbid as your email client and forget about web-based emails for your kids at all.
I don't know whether you even already have your copy of Outlook or any equivalent at home, in case of which you could just use that to add any number of email POPs for the two. You don't have to tell them that theoretically, you can monitor their inboxes and outboxes. ;)
That is just one advantage of non-webbased email clients.
The other is that you can design and properly manage your own junk filters, and opposite to yahoo and hotmail you have no limits of so&so many bad email senders and "bad" words. Forget hotmail for that, it just sucks. For a third, Outlook for example lets you decide whether you want images in an email to "show" or not. Also good against malicious attacks.
At that point I guess that you either are or will want to have run(ning) an AntiVirus program on all computers with access to the net?
As for spam email, as long as your kids are not using their email addresses on internet sites and chatforums and, uh, bot-prone &ct. blogs....they are fairly safe from spam. Sounds logic, right? Spam, in most cases, comes from leaving your address somewhere out there.
Let me resume, I hardly follow my own thoughts here.
You get the kids two addresses, either through your ISP's package, or from gmail or yahoo at the highest. You set up your Outlook (or Thunderbird) with two POP3s for them and give them access to it (you can set it up in a way that they cannot access your inboxes). If you're on XP, you can set up user accounts for your kids (login upon starting the computer) and connect their profiles to the respective Outlook "settings".
For browsing, don't use IE. Use Firefox and set appropriate security levels. No Active X, no Java...you get the point. Set "moderate search is on" in google (on google's site), as this filters almost all bad hits. For other search engines, previous commenters had good points.
Come to think of filter programmes - any good filter program would do, as long as you know how to control it. That's your part of the deal.
Posted by: mademoiselle a. | Aug 1, 2005 8:47:21 PM
There's a difference between saying you don't trust your kids and supervising them. My kids were allowed to have their own email addresses on condition that I be allowed to read their mail.
I would skim the "From" and "Subject" lines. Eventually, someone sends them an attachment, or a virus, or they get some spam. I just deleted all that before they even opened their mailboxes until they were older.
Definitely yes on the public space. Our main computer is still right next to the kitchen. We never used Nanny software, but then I was always around when they were online.
And let your kids know that there are bad places and that if they find one by accident, they should let you know. (I was cooking dinner one night and heard, "Mum, I clicked on "girls to play with" but they're all naked ladies!!" Yikes!!)
We didn't allow public chats until our children were in their mid-teens. And the child who got caught disobeying lost the computer for a full year. (yes, I've stopped making threats that I hate carrying out)
As for IM, we use Trillian and seem to have avoided all the garbage that comes with Microsoft instant messaging. I'm not 100% sure of this since a couple of my kids are now in University and so much smarter than I am.
;-)
Posted by: Talmida | Aug 1, 2005 9:53:45 PM
Safranit... Thanks. That may be what we try at the outset, but they have been clamoring to go to harrypotter.com and that sort of thing so I don't think the email-only idea is more than a very temporary solution. :-)
AbbaGav... I don't argue that a clear and present parental presence is important to reinforcing almost every rule... but I want as much help as possible to keep the bad stuff from finding them.
Savta Yaffa... Thank you for asking for me... that was extremely thoughtful of you. That's one vote for cyberpatrol (I can think of a lot of naughty words!). :-)
John... Thanks, I'd appreciate that.
Marjorie... Yes, please do email it to me. I'd be interested to see that. I agree about using only the kiddie search engines. However, that is only half the battle.
Steve... Thanks. I like the idea of the 'teaching moments'. You must a have a very good relationship with your kids.
Ralphie... I wish I weren't such a hater of things Microsoft... but I am. I also have very little confidence in the web content controls found in most browsers. They are ok for stopping malicious scripts... but not for hiding malicious 'strips'. :-)
mademoiselle a. ... As always, you are full of good advice. The kids actually already have gmail accounts... and I can certainly set up thunderbird for them to be able to check them from. My big issue though is still the web. So far I have one vote for netnanny and one for cyberpatrol (but no discussion of features). Hmmm... I thought a lot of my readers had kids! :-)
Talmida... As I said, this is so not about trust. I know kids are curious... and that there are dangerous places where their curiosity can take them. I want something that will keep them safe when I'm not there and their common sense takes a powder.
Posted by: David | Aug 1, 2005 10:30:15 PM
I've got 6 kids using computers at our house (yes, the psychotoddler tools around on Noggin.com).
AFAIK we haven't had a problem with pr()n or inappropriate sites for a few reasons:
1. The computers are in public areas. The only one who has a computer in a bedroom is my wife and she doesn't let me or anyone else use it.
2. There is NO PRIVACY. If one kid is on a computer, everyone else can see what he/she is looking at.
3. I know more about computers than they do (for now). I use this knowledge to bully them into thinking they can't hide anything from me ("I know exactly where you go" etc).
4. I set down the rules VERY CLEARLY so there will be no misunderstanding (ie "there will be no visiting of sites with naked women" or you lose computer priveleges)
5. At this point, my kids are more interested in playing games than sex (I think I am approaching this stage as well...)
Beyond that it is VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE to protect them unless you subscribe to what the Rabbi in our shul says every other shabbos, which is GET RID OF THE INTERNET BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE. But I don't think that will work, because eventually, if you make ANYTHING verboten, kids will want it that much more and will find a way to get it.
Posted by: psychotoddler | Aug 1, 2005 10:40:06 PM
Oh and regarding free advice, I don't see many people like you at the parties I attend ;-)
Posted by: psychotoddler | Aug 1, 2005 10:41:27 PM
I see. I thought email was one part of the package. We're using the Norton Security pack at home, though for very different reasons. I don't know what Anti Virus software you are using at home, but most AV SWs are flexible enough to be used as a strong filter (and save your the additional cost). Maybe dig through the "manual" and see where you can go with what you have already. Other than that, a filter is only a mid-term solution. Won't you rather opt for a long-term one?
Kids are curious. By the time you know they're too curious to not try this or that (because they know it's out there; probably because other kids have been bragging with what one could see etc.), all that helps, in my humble opinion, is talk. There is enough whit to cheat, so this should just make enough for reason.
I have found a site called safekids.com - have you seen it? Among other, which looks like a good read to me, they provide a "Family Contract for Internet Safety". You print it, read it, have everyone understand it, and place the pledge next to the computer.
Maybe that's something to start from for you four. If you cannot be sure, just don't let them alone at the computer for the first weeks.
This will hopefully give you two to three more years...ultimatively though, your children are becoming adults. It's probably a tough part for parents. If I had kids, I think the hardest part was to decide when to sit them down and talk about things. What would I prefer? Knowing I've done everything to prevent them from seeing nudity and worse and risking they eventually will get access to it in a place outside our home, outside my reach, without me even knowing it and without me having them mentally prepared for it. OR, trying to spot a decent moment where I'd introduce them to these matters, tell them the difference between nudity (and, sorry, a human's natural interest in it) and the bad stuff and see that they learn for themselves what is amoral and not worth pursuing, even if their kid friends brag about seeing this and that. I'd prefer the first.
I think it's a hard task to raise children and make them become strong individuals.
Posted by: mademoiselle a. | Aug 2, 2005 12:40:37 AM
GAH. I prefer the latter! I'd sit them down and talk!! (see, you got me all confused)
Posted by: mademoiselle a. | Aug 2, 2005 12:45:20 AM
"I wish I weren't such a hater of things Microsoft... but I am. I also have very little confidence in the web content controls found in most browsers. They are ok for stopping malicious scripts... but not for hiding malicious 'strips'. :-)"
Why? We use Linux in our house because of "things Microsoft"... don't get me started! :)
As far as toddlers on the computer: our 4 year old knows his way around Windows & because of that I am glad we are now using Linux because we were unable to successfully password the Windows partition... he managed to delete 3 of my email boxes & I'm not sure what else & I didn't remember to check to see what was in the recycle bin before emptying it.. all together now say "ouch".. :/
That said, our 4 yr old does do some pretty cool stuff with the paint program...
But my kids don't have unrestricted access to the computer... and they have to earn their computer time... unless they're doing something educational. We don't have that set up to a "T" but that's pretty much our kid-computer policy...
Cheers,
Jessica
Posted by: Jessica | Aug 2, 2005 5:54:32 AM
PS forgot to mention that our 4 sons are 10 (twins), 7-1/2 and 4...
Posted by: Jessica | Aug 2, 2005 5:55:17 AM
David, I have no advice to offer (Liam, 3, uses the paint program sometimes, that's it) but am drinking in everyone else's suggestions for the future.
Anyway, good luck. Sounds like discussion (so they know what to avoid/close down), non-microsoft programs, and some kind of filter software are the way to go.
Posted by: Kay | Aug 2, 2005 7:22:44 AM
There are tons of free popup blockers out there (I use the one that comes with the Yahoo! toolbar) that do an excellent job. You should also install a program like Adaware, which scans (you have to run the scan, it's not automatic)your system for adware programs that may have been unwittingly downloaded and installed, and has regular updates. You should also tell your children that they should not, under any circumstances, "leave" their email addresses on the web, whether it's to sign up for a newsletter, register for something, etc., at least not without you or Zehava checking out the site first to ensure that it's valid. This will help them to remain undetected (at least for a while) by spammers using applications that scan the web for email addresses. In Outlook (and perhaps other email apps as well, that's the one I'm familiar with), you can configure rules that will send emails containing any of the words appearing on a list that you define straight to the Recycle Bin. That's all I can think of (that hasn't already been said) before morning coffee (a fact which will be remedied as soon as I've posted this comment).
Posted by: She | Aug 2, 2005 9:40:53 AM
Can I just enforce what was said above? discuss the issue with them and be clear about the boundaries. Have everyone read and sign the contract at http://www.safekids.com/contract.htm and keep it on a bulletin board next to the computer. Keep the computer in plain view to everyone and let the children know that you will be keeping tabs on where they surf and if they try to hide anything (e.g. by erasing the history) then you will know that they have gone places that are not permitted. Talk about it, not just once but weekly, ask them what they've seen online, what they like, why they chose a particular site. Browse with them, show them sites that are interesting and fun. Make them aware of the dangers, talking to strangers, giving out their phone numbers, etc. Personally, I wouldn't worry much about inappropriate sites - if it's fun, the children won't want to jeopardize losing this privilage just to sneak into inappropriate sites.
Posted by: gella ka | Aug 2, 2005 12:22:37 PM
Psychotoddler... The Internet is like most medicines. By this I mean that it can be a miracle if taken as directed... but fatal if used carelessly or abused. I appreciate hearing how you handle things with your tribe.
mademoiselle a. ... You have a right to be annoyed at me... I wasn't clear. Yes, they have gmail accounts. But no, I haven't let them use them even once yet! I want to have all the angles figured out before I let them near a computer. Oh, and I assumed you meant the latter. :-)
Jessica... I am sorely tempted to install Linux (Redhat) when I do the reboot on the computer to be used for the kids. My only hesitation is that I don't know if any of the off-the-shelf netnanny-type programs will run in that environment. any ideas?
Kay... Thanks... yeah, that looks like the protocol. I'm surprised more people weren't touting any of the commercially available solutions, though. That was the original intention of this post.
She... I have the Google toolbar pop-up blocker and it seems to work quite well. But there are still plenty of potentially worrisome content that the kids can wander (or be lured) into through normal computer use. I consider myself a fairly sophisticated user (not a power-user, mind you) yet I have almost fallen for a few phishing scams and ads disguised as system alerts. Rules are also a valuable tools... but it seems a lot like reinventing the wheel when I'm sure some of the 'nanny-type' packages already have extensive lists compiled that you can opt out of instead of having to think of every dirty word you've ever heard or read. thanks for the advice, though.
gella ka... I like the idea of the contract that you and another commenter mentioned. I would definitely do away with the inevitable "oh, I didn't think you meant that! :-)
Posted by: David | Aug 2, 2005 2:26:32 PM
David: I would do a google search, but here's something I found on http://www.linux.ie/newusers/alternatives.php?style=printer (do a page search for "nanny" to read the paragraph)... it recommends Dansguardian, which can be found: http://dansguardian.org/ It seems to be a net filter...
One thing I love about using Linux (I use Mepis Linux, but Gary's been playing with tons of different versions of Linux & I just got comfortable with this one & like the bottom bar at the screen which shows me which programs I have open. Not all versions of Linux do that... I don't know about RedHat, only tried it once at a friend's house several years ago & don't remember it.
Hope that helps!
Jessica
Posted by: Jessica | Aug 3, 2005 3:58:49 AM
Jessica... Thanks, it does... very much.
Posted by: David | Aug 3, 2005 12:13:03 PM
I have not read all the previous posts, so maybe this was mentioned, but in my experience not many people think/are aware of it.
It is possible to put kids on the Internet but limit them to ***ONLY*** the web sites you approve of.
My PC is connected to the Internet. My kids PC is *NOT* connected to the Internet, it is connected (LAN) to mine.
My PC runs FreeProxy. My PC serves as the proxy for the LAN, and the FreeProxy software allows me to define what sites it will access. My kids say 'we would like access to' X or Y, and I decide if I want to add it to the list. Anything not on the list is simply unavailable. (For example, they see Arutz 7 news, but the ads fail to load.)
The program is available (FREE, like the name says) at www.handcraftedsoftware.org - and I will be happy to help you set it up. hmmm... is your email address here somewhere?
Posted by: Shimon | Aug 5, 2005 3:05:41 PM
Since I am not a parent, I have little to weigh in with on this topic. However, I really applaud your attempt to be prudent with your children's access to the Internet. The 'net is a wonderful, rich tool, but it is saturated with those who abuse its very open nature. Your parenting instincts are right on the money, I think.
Please, please give us all an update on how you handle this situation. I'm curious as to how it will all turn out!
Posted by: Lisa | Aug 11, 2005 6:10:10 AM
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