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Sunday, July 10, 2005

Reality Check

You may remember that I posted an entry last week about a site that had inexplicable lifted the little graphic I use to show my current weight.  Not only that, but a sharp-eyed reader noticed that this thief was stealing my bandwidth in order to display it on his blog (something I've talked about at length)!

One or two of you went over and gently asked him what the deal was with my button, and he finally owned up to lifting it from my site.  However, he made no attempt to apologize... and in fact tried to use religious tap-dancing to rationalize his behavior.

So, I'd like to ask a favor from my readers. 

I'd like to ask you to go to this post.  The post itself has nothing to do with the subject at hand (although if I hadn't made so many typos in my comments to him I would use his post as an example of why a spell-checker is a must for bloggers)... it is the comments section to which I'd like to draw your attention.   

Read through the comments section where the site-owner is finally confronted for stealing my weight button, and ask him the hard questions yourself.

Most of you have proved yourselves to be level-headed, fair-minded people.  I know I can count on you to inquire politely, without name-calling or profanity, about his behavior. 

Obviously, if you think he did nothing wrong you should tell him that as well.  After all... I'm not trying to organize a mob here!

Yes, I am aware that this is a very petty thing I'm doing here... opening up a fellow Jew to possible scorn/ridicule... but when I give someone the opportunity to do the right thing and they choose to 'dig in' rather than 'fess up'... then all bets are off.

Play nice.

221_16_5_27

Posted by David Bogner on July 10, 2005 | Permalink

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It looks like he took it down. Or, at least, I can't find your button on his site. I will sleep easy tonight! ;-)

Posted by: Doctor Bean | Jul 10, 2005 10:38:48 AM

When someone direct-links one of your pics, it's a great opportunity to have some fun. I recommend you take advangage of it and put a memorable picture in its place. I'm not saying use goatse or anything, but something that can teach a lesson.

Posted by: velvel | Jul 10, 2005 10:44:23 AM

I don't think this guy has the strength of character necessary to admit guilt and apologize.

Posted by: Lisa | Jul 10, 2005 10:55:25 AM

Not that this is an excuse, but Rachak is only 17...he has lots to learn.

Remember the age of the person you are dealing with.....

Posted by: Safranit | Jul 10, 2005 11:14:01 AM

I tend to agree that his age/ego is going to be part of the problem here. I think that you made it very clear that he was wrong and that sometimes immaturity makes it tough to admit that publicly.

Liked the "rent-a-rav" comment in response to his poor attempt to shush you.

Posted by: Jack | Jul 10, 2005 12:07:54 PM

Doctor Bean... That's just one of many images he (they) have lifted without permission, and continue to access using OPB (other peoples bandwidth). I think we can safely say from the tone of the site-owner's comments that he (they) do not see anything wrong with their behavior and took my button down hoping to turn down the heat a bit.

Velvel... I have done that once or twice before. However it gives me only a moment or two of enjoyment and doesn't really require the site-owner to accept any responsibility or admit wrong-doing. In fact, if the image I substitute is sufficiently offensive, they could end up playing the injured party. No... this time I want it to be very clear who is screwing whom.

Lisa... On a bad day neither do I. Sometimes a person has to have their nose rubbed in it before they can finally learn the lesson and own up.

Safranit... Where I grew up 17 would be old enough to be hauled into court as an adult. In religious circles the age of taking responsibility for one's actions is considerably younger. If these 'kids' want to set up a site that purports to "defend the frum velt from the Apikorsus'dike clutches of the blogosphere" (yes, it really says that)... there is a ton of responsibility that comes with that mantle. If someone puts up a blog in which they want to sit in judgement of others... they had better have their own ducks in a row because they will be held to a very high standard.

Jack... The age/ego thing may be a stumbling block to finding a solution to the problem (such as an apology and a request from all pilfered sites for permission to use their images), but it is not part of the problem itself. The only problem here is unethical behavior.

Posted by: David | Jul 10, 2005 12:29:30 PM

Jack... The age/ego thing may be a stumbling block to finding a solution to the problem (such as an apology and a request from all pilfered sites for permission to use their images), but it is not part of the problem itself. The only problem here is unethical behavior.

The behavior is wrong and inexcusable, but I think that the age is a large part of the issue in getting an apology. A mature person could turn around and say that they were wrong.

In cases like this I think that it can be appropriate to make it public so that the party can consider their actions.

The thing is, if they refuse to apologize are you going to be ok with that. I am guessing that you probably aren't going to see it, but maybe I am wrong.

Posted by: Jack | Jul 10, 2005 12:42:02 PM

Jack... "...if they refuse to apologize are you going to be ok with that?"

In a word... 'no'. But then, I'm not ok with a lot of stuff that goes on in the world.

If you're asking me how far I will pursue this... ask me again in a couple of days once I've seen what they do or don't do about fixing the problem. The ball is not in my court right now.

Posted by: David | Jul 10, 2005 12:55:53 PM

When I was 17 I did a few stupid things, but I also learned a lot. I'm 39 now, and I still do a few stupid things, according to my wife, anyway.

No age is too young to learn ethical behavior; and 17 is certainly old enough to endure the consequences of one's actions.

Posted by: Steve Bogner | Jul 10, 2005 3:57:08 PM

I am one offended 17 year old.
Of course 17 is old enough to realize mistakes and apologize for him. No, his age is in NO WAY an excuse for his behavior.

Posted by: tmeishar | Jul 10, 2005 4:59:58 PM

I guess the most shocking thing to me is that he is 17 years old, and in his post he said that he just celebrated his 4 month wedding anniversary!

Posted by: ac | Jul 10, 2005 6:57:01 PM

never mind...I get it now, they are 2 different guys. sorry :o(

Posted by: ac | Jul 10, 2005 6:59:05 PM

If you're asking me how far I will pursue this...

I learned a long time ago that a man of the advanced age of farty-far who slings hash while equipped with a sidearm is not someone to mess with.

And yes, that line is getting old but I am rather childlike and can appreciate jokes long after they lose their charm. ;)

Posted by: Jack | Jul 10, 2005 8:28:59 PM

On another note...do you think he realizes that the "Torah True Jews Zionist Alert" that he put up is Anti-Israel?

Pretty pathetic I must say...

Posted by: Safranit | Jul 10, 2005 9:27:51 PM

I just read the excuse "over there". Given the fact that the boy wants to see himself a web designer and website manager, yadah yadah, it's lame - all of the points. He should know much better.
But...it's an excuse containing the word excuse. I actually do hope the child learned his lesson well. Well, seems like there are a lot of ways one can lose their face on the internet.

Posted by: mademoiselle a. | Jul 10, 2005 9:35:30 PM

Steve... I agree. I think that many of the problems that exist in the world today are there because too many people are willing to step up and become apologists for bad behavior rather than let people take the heat for real mistakes. Sometimes there really is no acceptable excuse for bad behavior.

Tmeishar... As well you should be. BTW, until I started poking around your archives I had no idea how young you were. You write (and think) on a much more mature level.

ac... I made the same mistake... I just didn't publicize it. :-)

Jack... That's OK. It's starting to transcend jokedom. ;-)

Safranit... I'm quite sure he is aware of it. He tried to guilt Mirty in her comments section into blogrolling him. She very gently explained that she was tempted to do so but for the anti-zionist link. Clearly the link meant more to him than a place on Mirty's blogroll.

mademoiselle a. ... Unfortunately, I doubt he will take much of a lesson from this. A tempest in the teacup of a week-old post's comments is not really a tremendous loss of face. I actually decided to bring this up in the comments of an older post because I was hoping that having the discussion out of the glare of a freshly published post might allow him to back down gracefully. Clearly I was wrong.

Posted by: David | Jul 10, 2005 9:51:41 PM

Jack... That's OK. It's starting to transcend jokedom. ;-)

There was always the option of quoting Connery's line in the Untouchables:

Malone: You said you wanted to get Capone. Do you really wanna get him? You see what I'm saying is, what are you prepared to do?
Eliot Ness: Anything and everything in my power.
Malone: And THEN what are you prepared to do? If you open the can on these worms you must be prepared to go all the way because they're not gonna give up the fight until one of you is dead.
Eliot Ness: How do you do it then?
Malone: You wanna know how you do it? Here's how, they pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. That's the Chicago way, and that's how you get Capone! Now do you want to do that? Are you ready to do that?
Eliot Ness: I have sworn to capture this man with all legal powers at my disposal and I will do so.
Malone: Well the Lord hates a coward. Do you know what a blood oath is Mr. Ness?
Eliot Ness: Yes.
Malone: Good, cause you just took one.

But on a serious note, when I think about what I have learned I can look back at stupid things I did in my youth and realize that it took a few years for the lesson to really sink in. So we can hope that youthful bravado fades and he gets a better handle on things.

Posted by: Jack | Jul 10, 2005 10:16:56 PM

Did I see you at a wedding in Neveh Ilan on Thursday (last) . It was the wedding of Bezalel Daniel to Sarah Miller. He is from Efrat. f it was not you, there was somebody lookin very much like you.

Posted by: savta yaffa | Jul 10, 2005 10:28:54 PM

Continuing the thread over here:

Since I last checked, there seems to have been a flurry of comments in the post to which I posted a link. That's good. An open and honest discussion of the facts is seldom a bad thing.

However the thread is now closed and I would like to address a few comments made there:

1. There is a difference of opinion as to what exactly my Creative Commons License actually protects. I contend that it covers all material "work" contained on my site... and a commenter calling him/herself 'creative argument' feels it only protects my text. Unfortunately the proof he/she presented is a bit of code that is referring to the text of the agreement... not the text of my journal. The truth is that it is neither here not there because my 'about' page also declares quite clearly that all content is my property and is copyrighted. By the standard being advanced in some of the anonymous arguments put forth in the comments, if I don't have a sign on my house saying it is private property anyone should be able to walk in a take what they like! Truthfully, it feels a bit icky to have someone tell you that the prevailing assumption is that things you have created are not yours until you take binding measures to secure them from theft.

2. Rather than confront the site-owner directly I allowed a couple of friends to gently suss out whether he was aware of what he was doing. Clearly he was.

3. I don't for a second feel the need to apologize for using the term g'neivah (stealing) when confronting the site-owner. When you catch someone with their hand in your pocket and the proof is right there in his hand, there is no need to mince words. As one of the other commenters pointed out, he is a self-described hacker. There is no way a hacker would not understand the finer points of bandwidth theft. This was born out when the site-owner responded with detailed knowledge of the various 'anti-leech' programs that are employed to block just such stealing of bandwidth.

4. In all fairness I must point out that before closing the thread the site-owner not only publicly apologized to me, but also made a very magnanimous offer to pay me for whatever bandwidth he used. I have no intention of accepting the offer, but it was very nice of him to make it. However, in his apology the site-owner give small hints that he has not fully learned the lesson I had hoped to convey. He still maintains that if I had been using a free blogger account his actions would not have constituted stealing. For some reason there are some people who don't understand that there is very little in this world that is truly free. Whether you tap into the electricity from the power line out in front of your building... or glom cable from the line outside in the hall of your apartment building... or cheat the government out of welfare payments... someone is paying for each of those so-called victimless crimes. The same can be said for bandwidth theft, even from services like blogger. The measure of the person is how careful they are about trying not to transgress. I personally wish people were less careful about picking the perfect Etrog or eating only some obscure schita and would instead be more careful about issues between man and his neighbor and money matters.
I Accept the site owner's apology, but I would consider it a more sincere gesture if he would also stop using the bandwidth and images that belong to others.

Posted by: David | Jul 10, 2005 11:00:40 PM

he shouldn't have apologized to you, you should've apologized to him

Posted by: anon | Jul 10, 2005 11:40:39 PM

I'm late to the thread but that won't stop me from asking Anon: why do you say that David should have apologized? Whose bandwidth was he stealing?

And if you're going to challenge him, how about doing so openly, like a mature human being, instead of hiding behind anonymity? The worst he can do is prove you wrong.

So come on out, Anon. There's nothing to be afraid of. David's not going to eat you.

Posted by: Rahel | Jul 10, 2005 11:51:52 PM

and what about all that bandwidth David is stealing from blogger.com by linking to rachk's site and telling everyone to go there and bug him? that's even worse than wat rachk did.

Posted by: anon | Jul 11, 2005 12:03:16 AM

Anon -
Me thinks you do not understand how blogs work. It is perfectly acceptable to link to another site for the purpose of reading and posting on that person's site. Never for one moment did David pass off that site as his own.

David tried to create a discussion and debate and give that thief a chance to rectify the wrong he did.

I do not care how old that blogger is. My 6 and 8 year old know it is wrong to steal, and they also know to step up and admitt when you do something wrong.

Real T'shuva is being in the same situation and not reacting in the same manner. If he were truly observant of halacha and sincere in his apology he would take down the other buttons and make ammends to the other bloggers.

Posted by: Marjorie | Jul 11, 2005 2:24:42 AM

I don't think it is fair for you to call him a theif. He is just a person who made mistakes, but a theif? Rcack never claimed that the image was his like you tried to fallaciously imply, he readily stated that the image came from this site. If he truly "stole" it, then why would he say that it came from here? He could have deleted the comments asking him about the origin of the image, or simply ignored the comments, or even lied and say that it was his. Just because you have anti-religious sentiments, that doens't mean that every person with a black hat or velvet kipa is a crook. It's people like you (self-hating Jews) who give people a bad name.

Posted by: anon | Jul 11, 2005 2:49:58 AM

When Bogner said, "Obviously, if you think he did nothing wrong you should tell him that as well." I don't think he really wanted anyone on here to actually defend me, he was just trying to "cover his bases." But I do applaud those anonymous people who tried to put up a defense for me. However, I'd really like to ignore this kind of things instead of having a bunch of people start commenting things to defend me and then get everyone else into a long debate. So please end this now.

Posted by: Reuven Klein | Jul 11, 2005 3:16:33 AM

For the information of my readers: All of the anonymous comments in the above thread were sent from the same computer as Reuven Klein's comment (IP addresses don't lie)... also known as 'the site owner'. Clearly integrity is not his strong suit.

Not only is it a bit creepy that he was taking me and my commenters to task from behind the veil of anonymity... but his true feelings about us non-velvet kippah wearing Jews seem to have slipped out in the process.

I would say this brings the entire apology into questions, since clearly the site owner does not feel he did anything wrong... and has now stated as much.

All I can say is he would have been much smarter to have offered his apology and leave it at that.

Posted by: David | Jul 11, 2005 6:53:34 AM

mr b, i thought this was quite interesting....http://rachack.blogspot.com/2005/07/what-day.html#comments

tmeishar...i must say--im 18, and you write and think on a much MUCH higher level than me. i'm very very impressed.

savta yaffa...one of betzalel's cousins (i think 2nd cousin) who lives in boston is actually my best friend. and my 1st cousin is sarah miller's best friend. small world, eh?

Posted by: Tonny | Jul 11, 2005 7:28:12 AM

oh, and yes i am surprised to find out he is only 17, especially since he supposedly is the RABBINICAL AUTHORITY yada yada yada. i havent met recently 17 yr old rabbis. so you say, yeah its only a blog title, but it just seems rather arrogant if you ask me.

Posted by: Tonny | Jul 11, 2005 7:31:30 AM

1) I never said I was a Rabbi
2) I'm not the only person in this house that uses this internet connection. My mother, brother, and father's would all have the same IP connections so don't be so surprised if maybe one of them was defending me.

Posted by: Reuven Klein | Jul 11, 2005 7:35:51 AM

I've been thinking about whether or not to post this, and I'm still not sure. But I really enjoy this blog and I'm not hiding behind an anonymity, so I hope my points will be taken for what they're worth.

First of all, I'm not defending Reuven/Rachak. I don't know him, his blog doesn't interest me, etc.

But I do have to say that the need to be so protective over every image and use of bandwidth on this site is a little disturbing. Tachlis, it's not a limited resource in the sense that it will be used up. If it was, we'd all need to be careful about how many times we entered the site.

I don't disagree that the content and bandwidth use on your blog is yours and you can determine policy in regards to it. But all the talk about how even unauthorized use of a small image makes me feel uncomfortable.

I guess an example would be that if I went to someone's house and they let me take a tissue, but they asked me not to take one more tissue for later. Both tissues are theirs and they certainly have the right to only give me one tissue. But if they were so concerned about the second tissue, I wouldn't feel terribly comfortable about taking the first.

Maybe I'm missing the point. Maybe it's a slippery slope, and if you don't defend small images and minor bandwidth use, then the next thing you know your whole site will be pirated. If that's the case, then I retract what I've written.

But if not, then perhaps a little more atmosphere of "sheli shel'cha" / "mi casa, su casa" would be more welcoming.

Posted by: Dave | Jul 11, 2005 8:12:57 AM

Dave... I know a bit about you from 'the neighborhood' and that means I know enough to understand that you are a nice, fair-minded person. However you are mistaken about some of the basic facts here:

Unlike you, I do not use a free blogging application/hosting service. I pay for the privilege of having the ability to create a slightly more customized site than someone with a blogger account. Free blogging applications and hosts are a wonderful thing and are responsible for the huge proliferation of blogs where people can express themselves on a wide range of subjects. However, they are also responsible for people assuming that the entire blogging world is a big free-for-all where nothing costs money and anything goes.

I pay for my bandwidth usage. For 4 of the past 6 months I have exceeded my bandwidth allowance by between 10-20%. This costs me cash money. The main reason I have exceeded my bandwidth allowance is that there are quite a few images out there each month that people are using that are hosted on my server. This requires that I waste valuable time each month checking my referrer logs and tracking down these bandwidth thieves. In most cases the people are very nice and save the image to their own servers the moment I bring it to their attention. As I said, most free bloggers are not very sophisticated about how things work and are more than happy to learn that they were doing something wrong. I have considered putting anti-leech coding on my site to block this... but there are a few images of my own that I have hosted on my server for display elsewhere that would not be viewable if I did that. It would also inhibit my ability to use my blog server as a mini FTP site... a convenience that allows me not to have to drag large files around with me on a disk-on-key.

Your example of the tissues is flawed. By posting images on my site I was not offering them for people to take. It would be better to use the analogy of a pretty arrangement of flowers on my shabbat table. Yes, they are pretty... but it would be quite rude for a guest to simply take some of them without asking. Mr. Klein didn't come into my house and take two tissue when I only offered him one. He climbed through a window and decided to take flowers that I never offered him or allowed him to take. If people want to walk through the front door and view my site, they are welcome. I have never said no to anyone who has requested to copy images or other content from my site to their own servers. In fact there are few things more flattering! But I draw the line at people using my servers/bandwidth to support their own blogging habit. That is stealing, plain and simple. Blogger has recently allowed people to host their own pictures whch should cut down on some of the problems. But I'm sure as they start to reach their own storage limits on blogger they will begin linking to other people's sites again.

The fact that it was a small image he was linking to makes no difference at all! Toby's wedding ring is also relatively small, but I imagine that if I wanted to 'borrow' it without her permission she might raise a small objection. I invite you, and anyone else who thinks that bandwidth theft is a very small deal to step up and pay for it. I will gladly stop fussing about such a trivial thing if you are willing to write the check each month!

Last year our house was broken into in the middle of the night while we slept. Luckily, all they took was my wife's cell phone, a lipstick, her fanny pack and about 80 shekels. By your rationale I should not have felt violated because the thief only took relatively small, inexpensive items. In fact it seems you are suggesting that I should have welcomed them into my house... "mi casa, su casa" . I don't agree. There is an old expression: A person who will steal an egg will also steal a chicken. The point being that dishonesty is dishonesty regardless of the scale. Not only is it not your place to forgive the person who steals an egg from me... but you are not in a position to replace my chicken should it come to that.

Posted by: David | Jul 11, 2005 9:37:22 AM

Oh, one more thing. The site-owner (Reuven) mentioned on his blog that he had consulted a Rav about the persmissibility of going to a blog and hitting refresh over and over in order to deliberately use up bandwidth. The Rav seems to have poskined that if the site was a free blog such as a blogger account it was permissible, but for a site that costs the owner money it would not be permissible. Yet between midnight and 7 AM Israel time that seems to be exactly what Reuven did (almost 300 times!). He (and his anonymous alter-ego) responded to all commenters within minutes of each comment being posted... and in all there are over 280 'refreshes' from the same IP address during that short period. Either we are dealing with somebody with Obsessive/Compulsive Dissorder or this was done maliciously. Perhaps I will ask for payment after all.

Posted by: David | Jul 11, 2005 11:48:54 AM

Oh wow. I take back yesterday's thoughts. That child has, unfortunately, not learned his lesson. You are right.

Posted by: mademoiselle a. | Jul 11, 2005 1:59:28 PM

"Rabbinical Authority Consortium of Hackers"??? That speaks by itself!

Posted by: Sandra | Jul 11, 2005 3:03:44 PM

Wow! looks like WW3 up in here.

Posted by: kakarizz | Jul 11, 2005 3:38:06 PM

image lifting on the net is touch thing many people do it then dont wanna be victims of it.
the technology changes faster than laws can be written to adapt.

Posted by: The Town Crier | Jul 11, 2005 6:15:00 PM

I couldn't find the button when you first wrote abt it and now I can't even find it here, and I thought I was on my way to nerddom.

"I personally wish people were less careful about picking the perfect Etrog etc" - AMEN

And this? "All of the anonymous comments in the above thread were sent from the same computer as Reuven Klein's comment" - not to be mean or anyhting but the spelling seemed familiar.

What makes me a bit sad is the fact that the way we behave here is pretty much indicative of the way we behave outside, IRL. Which brings us back to the etrog. It's all abt the etrog if we have to *gasp* steal for it. May the etrog be quite astonishing then, for the rest is seriously lacking.

Posted by: Lioness | Jul 11, 2005 7:43:14 PM

I'm back from vacation, hence no comments last week...I really like the flowers analogy. And you are 100% right about people who are machmir on other areas like shechita, etc. and totally lax about g'neiva.

Posted by: Essie | Jul 11, 2005 10:13:45 PM

Yeah, I had a feeling it was him doing all the anonymous commenting on his own blog too.... which REALLY creeped me out. Just how stupid does he think we are?

Posted by: celestial blue | Jul 11, 2005 11:06:43 PM

what's REALLY amusing is that he actually wrote this on a post today: "it's pretty sad when most of these people have to hide behind anonymous usernames."

yikes. Kettle, meet Pot.
Pot, meet kettle.

Posted by: celestial blue | Jul 11, 2005 11:14:39 PM

mademoiselle a. ... Not only that, but he has continued carrying on over at his site about how he is the injured party. Look, he's entitled to throw himself a pity party... after all, it's his site. But he is now threatening to shut down his blog as a result of this and other bad experiences. My guess is he is just standing out there on the window ledge begging for sympathy and hoping someone will beg him not to jump... but then again, that's probably why I don't volunteer on the suicide hotline.

Sandra... In his defense, he has said several times that he is not a Rabbi... so I think it is safe to assume he isn't any of the other things on the list either. I can't really throw stones at his blog name since all I could come up with for a blog name is a word in German that 2% of my readers actually understand. :-)

Kakarizz... No, unfortunately WWIII is playing out its latest battle in London. This is just a squabble (and not a very interesting one, at that)

Town Crier... First off, welcome. Your reputation proceeds you. Now to your comment: You are correct that the technology develops faster than the laws, but the basic premise of 'this is mine and you need to ask me before taking/using it' really never went out of style. I may not be able to hold everyone to that standard but I feel justified in asking a self-professed religious person to do the right thing.

Lioness... Yeah, all those comments came from Reuven /Rachack. The IP address, browser version, and operating system were identical for all of them. So unless his mom, dad and sibs were playing musical chairs at the same computer we have a very sad case of Rabbi Hacker playing both the good and bad cop in this little psychodrama. Oh, the reason you couldn't find the button on his site is because he removed it. The odd thing is that he almost did the right thing. His first instinct was to take it down once he knew he had screwed up... but then something went wrong and he decided he needed to justify his actions and create justifications for what he had been doing. Whatever... way too much of my life wasted on this stuff.

Essie!... You've been missed. I hope you had a nice vacation and that you'll share some details! Welcome back.

Celestial... It's his blog. So long as he isn't taking stuff from me, I'm content to let him rant.

Posted by: David | Jul 11, 2005 11:19:43 PM

this is true, that he didnt say he was a rabbi, but i dont know about anyone else (or maybe im just stupid which is definately possible), but i got the impression he was a rabbi...

and yes, from someone learning shechita, ppl should care more about gneiva, than wether or not the shochet that shechted your meat has a beard or not...

Posted by: Tonny | Jul 11, 2005 11:50:56 PM

Aw man, He closed the comments before I could get on the thread! I just wanted to say "I'm not Jewish, but I weigh 126 pounds if you'd like a button."

Posted by: Bayou | Jul 12, 2005 2:32:46 AM

Maybe he just figured that the "221" graphic needed to get out of the house once in a while?

I mean, that little fella's been hanging around here at Treppenwitz for quite a while, hasn't he? :-)

Posted by: Andy Levy-Stevenson | Jul 12, 2005 3:12:38 PM

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