Comments on A Bit of Perspective, Please!TypePad2017-08-15T11:01:10ZDavid Bognerhttps://www.treppenwitz.com/tag:typepad.com,2003:https://www.treppenwitz.com/2017/08/a-bit-of-perspective-please/comments/atom.xml/Jim Etchison commented on 'A Bit of Perspective, Please!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef01b8d2a0f9af970c2017-08-17T16:24:10Z2017-08-25T09:55:57ZJim Etchisonhttp://www.meatofthematter.wordpress.comMr. Bogner, I hope you remember me! It's been ages since I've been at your blog. I hate to be...<p>Mr. Bogner, I hope you remember me! It's been ages since I've been at your blog. I hate to be the guy who chimes in after years and years only to disagree, but I disagree. </p>
<p>All the comparisons you make would be adequate if this one thing weren't true: America is battling stage four cancer levels of racism. Perhaps in your trips to liberal Martha's Vineyard you were led to believe that America is "mostly over" its racist past, but we are far from it. Roughly 37% of Americans still support Trump, and I would venture to say that a majority of them are covert racists. Harsh words, yes. Broad brush, perhaps, but racism exists in varying degrees and I am happy to declare that almost ALL Americans have some degree of racism. Even I do ... because racism doesn't end with the conscious choice of not being a racist (I'm sure you know this), but must be extricated out of the narrow passageways of our subconscious as a life-long committed effort. It is reinforced on a daily basis by our language, our body language, our neighborhood choices, our restaurant choices, etc. I will always be a racist, and will always be plagued with the task of overcoming my own racism because I grew up in a country that still *literally* keeps racist ideas on a pedestal. </p>
<p>Your example of Martha's Vineyard is a laughable exception to the real motivation to all 1500 Confederate Memorials that were erected in the U.S. between the early 1900's and the 1920's. They were erected for the sole purpose of keeping the black man down, and with the winking hope that The South would rise again. I think you're giving Americans way too much credit; the subjugation of black people is still entrenched in the recesses of our national consciousness. Obama's presidency brought the simmering pot to a full boil. It's a crisis that must be met with a radical response. </p>
<p>This movement is not partisan showmanship. It's coming from people who have learned from History. We don't want to be the "Good Germans" who don't sacrifice life and limb to preserve what is good in our country. In my opinion, our country is closer to succumbing to the cancer of Nazism than you think. Should we stand by until we get closer? How close should we get to the brink before taking an adamant stand? Even now Trump's regime is gathering the identities of all who oppose him. We are way past this issue being anywhere near partisan showmanship. </p>antares commented on 'A Bit of Perspective, Please!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef01b8d2a0e02f970c2017-08-17T10:29:37Z2017-08-25T09:55:57ZantaresDavid, US Constitution, Article III, Section 3 (in part): Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War...<p>David, </p>
<p>US Constitution, Article III, Section 3 (in part): </p>
<p>Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.</p>
<p>IMO Jordan Hirsch is, in fact, correct: R E Lee was a traitor; that is, someone who commits treason. He was never convicted for the simple reason that he was never brought to trial. </p>
<p>As for the fawning admiration of Lee, I'm not having any of it. Lee is still admired and respected at the USMA, aka West Point. I think that is a mistake. Lee was a brilliant tactical commander, but he was the most benighted and biased strategic commander of the war. Forrest, A S Johnston, even Kirby were better at strategy than Lee. Lee fought for Virginia and only for Virginia, not for the Confederacy. Grant, Sherman, Porter, and Farragut were all better strategists than Lee. </p>
<p>Anyway, as has been stated earlier, most of the statues erected to the memory of Confederate heroes came after WWI; that is, after Birth of a Nation played in movie theaters. I grew up in Texas. I disfavor display of the Confederate flag (it is, in fact, a federal crime to display the Confederate flag) and the glorification of the Confederate cause. All this nonsense of rationalization that the Civil War was not about slavery -- tell me this: Would there have been a war without it? The Confederacy was a military dictatorship. All white men were conscripted into military service. In Texas, many escaped confederate service by joining the state militia. It was an odious time in American history, and it still stinks. I am happy the Confederacy lost. I am glad Sherman burned Atlanta and torched his way to the sea. </p>
<p>Back to the present, as much as I detest the Confederacy, this is not the way to erase its memory. </p>
<p>I said we are not going to vote our way out of this mess. You replied that we have so far. That's the key. So far. The US avoided civil war with the vote until 1860, too. </p>
<p>Winter is coming. It is now 1857 in America. </p>Rich commented on 'A Bit of Perspective, Please!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef01b8d2a08123970c2017-08-16T04:20:34Z2017-08-25T09:55:57ZRichI too, remember the Skokie ruling. I thought then, and think now that the court was mistaken. Nazi regalia ARE...<p>I too, remember the Skokie ruling. I thought then, and think now that the court was mistaken. Nazi regalia ARE fighting words. Democracy in the US is in grave danger. Naftali Bennett had to call Trump out on the Anti-Semitism issue, and Trump's response is inadequate.</p>
<p>I am not going to argue the point of whether or not the removal of these statues is right or wrong.</p>
<p>I will argue that if you see a moral equivalency between these two groups, then you are no better than someone who can look at that can look at the murders in Halamish and call for an end to "the cycle of violence."</p>Maksim commented on 'A Bit of Perspective, Please!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef01b8d2a07b1c970c2017-08-16T03:37:00Z2017-08-25T09:55:57ZMaksimThank you, Treppenwitz, for being willing to challenge the prevailing paradigm. None of us like NAZI's, especially Jews, but I...<p>Thank you, Treppenwitz, for being willing to challenge the prevailing paradigm. None of us like NAZI's, especially Jews, but I am glad that the US Constitution and other documents of justice like it enumerate that freedom of speech is for everyone, regardless of popularity. And vigilante violence is not justice. </p>
<p>I find it sad that small town politicians were willing to engineer a situation like this (again) instead of controlling extremists groups like the Neo-NAZI's and ANTIFA. I find it sadder that the ideals of journalism has been so neglected as to engineer and manipulate the vast amount of reporting on this tragic situation. </p>
<p>History has both factual and subjective components. We don't get to pick the factual parts. We do get to pick our subjective understanding or preferences. Still, I'd rather leave the history to its own period and not whitewash it with the preferences of a different and later time. Remember the good and learn from the bad. Or we won't have anything left because all of it will be offensive to someone. With any hope, societies evolve over time and grow for the better. <br />
</p>Mike Spengler commented on 'A Bit of Perspective, Please!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef01b8d2a04adf970c2017-08-15T15:41:14Z2017-08-25T09:55:57ZMike SpenglerAgree strongly with Jordan. I'll add that the date I've seen given for the installation of Lee's statue in Charlottesville...<p>Agree strongly with Jordan. I'll add that the date I've seen given for the installation of Lee's statue in Charlottesville was in 1924. At a time when although slavery "de jure" had been eliminated 60 years previously, a form of slavery "de facto" was firmly entrenched in the South. Jordan's observation that these statues were indeed "political and racist tools of oppression" gives rise to an interesting question: If we accept that Robert E. Lee was a gentleman with a sense of honor and dignity, may we not speculate as to whether or not Lee himself would have disapproved of the use of his image to justify what was a form of continued oppression 60 years after the question was supposedly resolved by the Civil War...? </p>treppenwitz commented on 'A Bit of Perspective, Please!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef01b8d2a0430b970c2017-08-15T14:20:52Z2017-08-25T09:55:57Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.comJordan... Many, but certainly not all of the civil war statues were attempts to romanticize the confederate cause. I'll grant...<p>Jordan... Many, but certainly not all of the civil war statues were attempts to romanticize the confederate cause. I'll grant you that. But just as nearly every new England town has a civil war memorial in its square, so do nearly every southern town. Cities had even more ornate commemorative statues. Both sides lost a staggering number of men and absolutely all of their innocence. Yes, Lee was a slave owner, but so were most of the founding fathers. Where is your contempt for them? As to his being a traitor, I would ask you, respectfully, to look up the word. I happen to subscribe to the northern narrative of events, but at that point in time, the Union was a relatively young association, some of whose members felt it had outlived its usefulness. I'm uncomfortable with the idea that any state is stuck with the Union and has no recourse to hold an internal vote to secede. For instance, if I lived in one of the fly-over states, I might think my continued presence in the union served other people's agendas more than it did my own. But that is my opinion and has no bearing on the larger discussion. If Lee were truly a traitor, he would have been arrested and tried as one. He was offered command of the US Army. He declined. He resigned his commission. So far nothing traitorous. He took a commission in a state army... a state which held a democratic referendum to leave the union. I've made a bit of a study of some of the Union atrocities during the civil war. You really don't want to call the entire south traitorous. And the Jews were not loved in either place. But that being said, the Secretary of State, Secretary of War and Attorney General for the Confederacy was a Jew named Judah Benjamin. Major-General Ulysses S. Grant issued General Order 11 in December of 1862 expelling all Jews from Tennessee and accused them all of profiteering; All of them! Only Lincoln's personally stepping in an cancelling the order saved the Jews. Lastly, after checking I see I made an error between two separate statues. But you have to admit that is still quite troubling. </p>Jordan Hirsch commented on 'A Bit of Perspective, Please!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef01bb09b92a7d970d2017-08-15T14:04:42Z2017-08-25T09:55:57ZJordan HirschYour post is so wrong headed I do t know where to begin. First of all, you are conflating, or...<p>Your post is so wrong headed I do t know where to begin. First of all, you are conflating, or appear to be conflating two different events. The Nazi demonstration in Charlottesville was in response to the city government decision to take down the statue of Robert E. Lee, who by the way was a traitor, an oath breaker, and a slave owner. Don. Or believe lost cause revisionism. It was a decision made by democratically elected representatives of a municipality. The tearing down of a confederate statue was not even in the same state, and was a spontaneous act of a mob. In that limited way, you are correct. Mob rule is a bad thing. And yet.<br />
The statues of confederate leaders were not erected until most of the participants in the civil war were dead. They were part of the "lost cause" movement, which was a revisionist reading of history that recast the confederates as paladins fighting for freedom, rather than a white aristocracy trying to maintain their death grip on an enslaved people whose servitude was enforced with horrific violence. That is what the civil war was fought over. The statues are memorials, which are tools to teach history. Those tools were erected in the south to make it very clear to the children and grandchildren of the slaves that they weee I fertile, and that their continued subservience would be enforced through law, Jim Crow statutes and poll taxes, and violence, the KkK, which was expressly founded as a paramilitary organization by one of the most odious confederate generals, to relitigate through violence and murder the freeing of the slaves and the defeat of the traitorous south. <br />
Please do not try to defend any soft reading of these statues. They are political and racist tools of oppression, and were designed that way. We know a lot more about the causes and aftermath of the civil war than we did even thirty years ago, and the lost cause revisionism upon which you base your assessment has long been discredited.</p>treppenwitz commented on 'A Bit of Perspective, Please!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef01bb09b92920970d2017-08-15T13:47:02Z2017-08-25T09:55:57Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.comantares ... So far we have. Amanda Rush ... Benedict Arnold was a traitor. Robert E. Lee was a general...<p>antares ... So far we have.</p>
<p>Amanda Rush ... Benedict Arnold was a traitor. Robert E. Lee was a general in a conflict where one side felt that the time had come to leave the union and the other side felt it was important enough to use force to stop them. Lee was not arrested or otherwise legally punished after the war, which supports my position. He had his family home confiscated (his family was eventually compensated for it after he died) and he was denied the right to vote. But he was never accused of being a traitor, so please be careful when throwing out that word. It has a very specific meaning. Lastly, the argument is not over whether "the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery and how it's just about heritage". The argument is about whether the war was fought over slavery or to settle whether states rights or federal authority should dominate the relationship between the two. I've heard very smart people argue both sides of that argument quite convincingly... so I wouldn't act as though 'the science is settled'.</p>
<p>Marsha ... sleeplessness helps my idea machine.</p>
<p>Bill Arends... Your mention of Rommel is appropriate, but not for the reason you probably think. He is the only senior member of the German WWII military leadership whose memory was allowed to be marked with an annual ceremony after the war. That should tell you something about how different he was than some of his more ideologically motivated colleagues, and how principled people who are associated with problematic causes shouldn't always be painted with the same brush. As to the slave escape incident you mentioned, I am not familiar with it. But there is an entire Wikipedia page discussing Lee's views on slavery which I think you will find more nuanced and scholarly than one unattributed incident. And it is worth noting that you and I are far more complex individuals than one incident in our lives would suggest. I think the same could be said of Lee.</p>Bill Arends commented on 'A Bit of Perspective, Please!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef01b7c915e857970b2017-08-15T13:27:27Z2017-08-25T09:55:57ZBill ArendsForgot to mention - When three slaves escaped, Lee had them tied to posts and whipped—50 lashes for the men,...<p>Forgot to mention - When three slaves escaped, Lee had them tied to posts and whipped—50 lashes for the men, 20 for the woman—and then had their backs washed with stinging brine. Lee may have been ambivalent to slavery as an institution but he practiced it with full force of its horrors.</p>Bill Arends commented on 'A Bit of Perspective, Please!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef01b7c915e6e0970b2017-08-15T13:12:30Z2017-08-25T09:55:57ZBill ArendsAllowing for statues of Robert E Lee is no different than statues of Erwin Rommel in Germany (thank God this...<p>Allowing for statues of Robert E Lee is no different than statues of Erwin Rommel in Germany (thank God this did not happen). They were both good generals that openly supported and fought for bad causes. Lee had field slaves and even at Arlington the conditions were bad. Rommel saw the anti-Semitism of Germany and said nothing about it until he thought Germany would be compromised by Hitler's insane hatred for Jews. Lee however fought to defend states that relied on slavery as the basis for their economy he would never have freed his slaves. Neither Lee or Rommel should be venerated and in God’s name neither should have statues to them. This isn’t sanitizing history it is putting it back in its correct perspective. If the Union had been as thorough in re-educating the South as the allies were with Entnazifizierung (denazification) after WWII then the US would not be in this situation now. If this had been done after the civil war there would be no Jim Crow laws, no segregation and no need for the civil Rights movement of the 60’s. This is just deconfederatization 152 years too late. My first reaction to this was that someone should shove a stick of dynamite up the rear end of Lee's horse and be done with it, but that would only make a martyr out of a horse's A--, pun intended. Personally these monstrosities belong in Museums not in public parks.</p>Marsha commented on 'A Bit of Perspective, Please!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef01b8d2a03aca970c2017-08-15T12:56:16Z2017-08-25T09:55:57ZMarsha This "blinding flash of intellect" came just in time..<p>This "blinding flash of intellect" came just in time..</p>Amanda Rush commented on 'A Bit of Perspective, Please!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef01b8d2a039c6970c2017-08-15T12:44:38Z2017-08-25T09:55:57ZAmanda Rushhttp://www.arush.ioShould the statue have been illegally torn down? Absolutely not. Should there be statues all over the place down here...<p>Should the statue have been illegally torn down? Absolutely not. Should there be statues all over the place down here honoring people who are traitors? Absolutely not. Every one of them should be taken down, and if they need to survive, placed in a museum. But they, and the rebel flag, should not be proudly displayed on government property. If people want to put these things in their yards, fine. But I for one could do with a little less protest about how the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery and how it's just about heritage. If it were really about heritage, then surely these lovers of the south should have been first in line to shout the nazis down when they attached themselves to the southern cause. Except they haven't been, and they're only opening their mouths now because a statue was torn down. That speaks volumes.</p>antares commented on 'A Bit of Perspective, Please!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef01b7c915e0eb970b2017-08-15T12:04:27Z2017-08-25T09:55:57ZantaresI have no confidence that we are going to vote our way out of this mess.<p>I have no confidence that we are going to vote our way out of this mess. </p>