Comments on Solving a problem begins by calling it by its proper nameTypePad2012-01-08T09:06:02ZDavid Bognerhttps://www.treppenwitz.com/tag:typepad.com,2003:https://www.treppenwitz.com/2012/01/solving-a-problem-comes-first-by-calling-it-by-its-proper-name/comments/atom.xml/Beth Frank-Backman commented on 'Solving a problem begins by calling it by its proper name'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef016760c0b54b970b2012-01-18T19:18:15Z2012-01-18T19:18:15ZBeth Frank-Backmanhttp://jacobsbones.wordpress.com/-- What you fail to explain is why the religiously observant Jews in the IDF have to 'toughen up' --...<p>-- What you fail to explain is why the religiously observant Jews in the IDF have to 'toughen up' --</p>
<p>I should think that would be obvious.<br />
But if you need an explanation, it might go like this: </p>
<p>"Kol Isha" is fundamentally a prohibition against looking or hearing a woman for sexual purposes. Many poseks believe it is possible to hear and look at women if you are doing it for non sexual purposes. </p>
<p>Jews are responsible for doing teshuvah when they do something that is wrong. Viewing women as sex objects is wrong. Hence a male who has difficulties with that should be working on teshuvah. If that means "toughing up" so be it. But generally, it just means a change in attitude that focuses on all the other aspects of women: their intelligence, their dedication, their vision, their awareness of emotional dynamics, etc, etc.</p>
<p>By contrast, the woman who is upset at being objectified by pin-ups on board a ship hasn't committed any sin. She is being sinned against. Therefore she has no responsibility for teshuvah or toughening up.</p>treppenwitz commented on 'Solving a problem begins by calling it by its proper name'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef016760bcd46b970b2012-01-18T13:19:26Z2012-01-18T13:19:26Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.comBeth Frank-Backman ... What you fail to explain is why the religiously observant Jews in the IDF have to 'toughen...<p>Beth Frank-Backman ... What you fail to explain is why the religiously observant Jews in the IDF have to 'toughen up' and adapt rather than the system. It seems to me that the rules they are trying to follow have far more substantial weight and provenance than some army manual that states that events with singing build morale. Please think before you engage your keyboard.</p>Beth Frank-Backman commented on 'Solving a problem begins by calling it by its proper name'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef0162ffb509dc970d2012-01-17T05:54:47Z2012-01-17T05:54:47ZBeth Frank-Backmanhttp://jacobsbones.wordpress.com/-- For many religious (not just Hareidi) soldiers, hearing a woman sing is as overtly erotic as a Playboy pinup....<p>-- For many religious (not just Hareidi) soldiers, hearing a woman sing is as overtly erotic as a Playboy pinup. You can argue all you want that they need to toughen up and join the modern world. But in doing so, you are also saying that those women who began serving on U.S. Navy back in the 80s should also have 'toughened up' and acclimated themselves to the testosterone-laden environment they were so keen to join. --</p>
<p>Really? </p>
<p>It seems to me that there is NO moral equivalence here at all. The moral thing is not to treat women as sex objects. The US and Israeli military expectations serve the same moral purpose. Both taking down pin ups and insisting that haredi men have a healthier view of women reduce the sexual objectification of women. </p>
<p>The things you call the same serve contradictory moral purposes. Men toughening up by learning not to view women's voices as sexual _decreases_ the sexual objectification of women. Women toughening up by laughing off and never protesting pin-ups or disrespectful jokes _maintains_ or _increases_ the sexual objectification of women.</p>
<p>Considering that the Haredim are arguing for this in the name of religion AND are excusing their behavior by claiming it is respectful of women (it isn't), neither moral result nor the sexual objectification of women are side issues here.</p>Yosef commented on 'Solving a problem begins by calling it by its proper name'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef0162ff5c2168970d2012-01-10T23:21:24Z2012-01-10T23:21:24ZYosefMark- obligation for army service is determined based on a person's status when it first becomes relevant, i.e. at 18....<p>Mark- obligation for army service is determined based on a person's status when it first becomes relevant, i.e. at 18. They can them postpone the service in 6 month increments if they are a kollel student. So the 24 year old with 2 kids still officially has to do full army service if he either leaves kollel or tries to work.<br />
He can becomes officially exempt at age 28. By that point it's often too late, since someone under great financial pressure has a harder time investing time and money in professional courses, training, etc, and most of the menial work they can do at that point still won't be enough to live on anyway, so there is little incentive to work at that point.<br />
The main historical reason for the reluctance of chareidim to join the army is lack of trust and fear of secular coercion, which unfortunately has a strong historical basis. Anti-zionists won't serve for ideological reasons, but that's not true for most chareidim. <br />
Making sure that army service is a viable option for the chareidi community is really important for chareidim, for the Israeli economy, for the army, for everyone. <br />
We need to do everything possible so that respect and accommodation (instead of rampant bigotry, as David so precisely defined it) become the rule here so that we can all live together and succeed together.</p>Benji Lovitt commented on 'Solving a problem begins by calling it by its proper name'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef0168e5496bf5970c2012-01-10T09:35:25Z2012-01-10T09:35:25ZBenji Lovitthttp://www.benjilovitt.comI've been gone for awhile. Damn, you are an excellent writer. Thought about submitting this somewhere? I can't believe Jpost...<p>I've been gone for awhile. Damn, you are an excellent writer. Thought about submitting this somewhere? I can't believe Jpost wouldn't publish it.</p>psachya commented on 'Solving a problem begins by calling it by its proper name'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef0162ff484888970d2012-01-09T14:37:14Z2012-01-09T14:37:14ZpsachyaI have been reading about the issues you discuss for a while, and yours is the most intelligent, balanced take...<p>I have been reading about the issues you discuss for a while, and yours is the most intelligent, balanced take on the topic that I have yet seen. Spot on.</p>Mark commented on 'Solving a problem begins by calling it by its proper name'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef0168e537cd1d970c2012-01-09T04:16:37Z2012-01-09T04:16:37ZMarkhttp://twitter.com/MarkSoFlaThe military exemption explains why Charedi men under age 24 without children don't work. It doesn't explain why so many...<p>The military exemption explains why Charedi men under age 24 without children don't work. It <b>doesn't</b> explain why so many Charedi men over age 24 with 2 children don't work. And it doesn't explain the chronic underemployment among most Charedi men throughout their entire lives.</p>Nachum commented on 'Solving a problem begins by calling it by its proper name'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef016760310712970b2012-01-08T18:21:06Z2012-01-08T18:21:06ZNachumJust to try to clarify the issue of going to work without having done military service... it's not that there's...<p>Just to try to clarify the issue of going to work without having done military service... it's not that there's a law preventing work in that situation... the issue is that in order to avoid military service you need an exemption. This exemption requires you to be learning in kollel full time and does not allow you to work. If you go to work, the government will find out about it, since your employer must file tax and Bituach Leumi for you. This will be proof that your exemption is no longer valid and thus the army will cancel it and draft you. So this system tends to be a strong motivator for kollel students to not work.</p>ED commented on 'Solving a problem begins by calling it by its proper name'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef0168e53163c3970c2012-01-08T17:20:56Z2012-01-08T17:20:56ZEDThe best way to deal with Haredi participation in the IDF might be to form separate units for those who...<p>The best way to deal with Haredi participation in the IDF might be to form separate units for those who want it, and then gradually integrate as more experience is gained on how to accomodate large numbers of Haredi in the IDF.Leaving singing aside, it must be made clear to all that women have an indispensable role in the war fighting abilities of the IDF which will never be compromised. The Israeli justice system seems to have a problem punishing law breakers on the left and right, creating an atmosphere of permisiveness in society. As the Haredi integrate more with Israeli society, compromises will have to be made by both sides in education,the IDF,and the work force; demonizing the other side is never a good solution. </p>Joe commented on 'Solving a problem begins by calling it by its proper name'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef0162ff3acbc9970d2012-01-08T15:57:27Z2012-01-08T15:57:27ZJoeAs a white South African I have to disagree vehemently with your attitude to affirmative action, after suffering under 17...<p>As a white South African I have to disagree vehemently with your attitude to affirmative action, after suffering under 17 years of Black Affirmative action , the government is actually realising that it aint working so instead of dropping it they have tightened the screws even more and basically making it difficult or even impossible for an employer to employ a non-black.The response from whites has been a surge in young white entrepreneurs which is frustrating the whole process because what the government really wants is not lots of well off black but lots of impoverished whites, well off blacks would not vote for the government.Regarding the number of children that a family has, it is quite simple "you breed em , you feed em"</p>rutimizrachi commented on 'Solving a problem begins by calling it by its proper name'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef0167602f6e10970b2012-01-08T15:36:30Z2012-01-08T15:36:30Zrutimizrachihttp://rutimizrachi.blogspot.comThere are so many excellent points made in this essay that all I can do is say "Spot on!" to...<p>There are so many excellent points made in this essay that all I can do is say "Spot on!" to the entire thing. Your examples worked for me. But then, preaching to the converted isn't much of a feather in your cap. :-)</p>Shtrudel commented on 'Solving a problem begins by calling it by its proper name'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef0167602f56d1970b2012-01-08T15:30:17Z2012-01-08T15:30:17ZShtrudelFirst, there's a serious error in your article... The's NO law in that requires that a job applicant has to...<p>First, there's a serious error in your article... The's NO law in that requires that a job applicant has to have served in the IDF... In fact, it's illegal for an employer to ask what the prospective employer to ask the applicant about their military background!...</p>
<p>Second, I agree with your position that people (religious or otherwise) should NOT be forced to act against their convictions... In other words, as an example, religious soldiers should not be forced to hear a female singer... </p>Anon commented on 'Solving a problem begins by calling it by its proper name'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef0167602deee0970b2012-01-08T13:10:07Z2012-01-08T13:10:07ZAnonThe law of men not being able to hear women sing is not made-up - it's part of Halacha, as...<p>The law of men not being able to hear women sing is not made-up - it's part of Halacha, as much as any other part of Halacha that we keep, like the Rabbinic laws in terms of Shabbos and Kosher. The fact that we have "toughened up" so much as a society that most men don't find women singing erotic is not the fault of the orthodox who still keep this law and are sensitive to it.</p>treppenwitz commented on 'Solving a problem begins by calling it by its proper name'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef0167602c8ee1970b2012-01-08T10:46:13Z2012-01-08T10:46:13Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitzAndy... You have built a classic straw man and then easily destroyed it. Any analogy is going to be flawed....<p>Andy... You have built a classic straw man and then easily destroyed it. Any analogy is going to be flawed. If you try to latch on to something I said as an example in order to prove your case... you will win. But we will all lose. You have also offered a bunch of 'what if... ' scenarios which are not rlevant... at least at this point. There's a great line from 'Brighton Beach Memoirs' where the father of the family is asked what they will do if all their reletaives from Poland were to suddenly show up at their door. the father says something to the affect of, "I can't deal with relatives who haven't landed yet".</p>Andy commented on 'Solving a problem begins by calling it by its proper name'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef0167602c6a85970b2012-01-08T10:23:29Z2012-01-08T10:23:29ZAndyI just want to be clear. According to your analogy: Haredi men = Women. Women singing in official army ceremonies...<p>I just want to be clear. According to your analogy: Haredi men = Women. Women singing in official army ceremonies = pornography in public workplaces / sexual harassment. But just as the Navy decided what to outlaw and what not to, so has the Israeli army. And were a woman to decide ON HER OWN that a particular environment was offensive to her, but the Navy brass disagreed and said that it met their standards of conduct, would the Navy allow her to recuse herself as a matter of policy? I doubt it. And going back to the Israeli army for a moment, please tell me where does it end? Is not the sight of a woman in pants problematic? So what about allowing religious soldiers to absent themselves any time an immodestly dressed woman is present? What about following the orders of a woman? Is that not against halacha, according to some opinions? So should soldiers be able to disregard orders from female officers? Or do you just create all-male units to avoid the issue altogether? And if so, do you think the American Navy would have created all female units in order to accommodate the women they were hoping to integrate into the service? Or let's say that we were trying to integrate the underrepresented Appalachian redneck into the American army, but they couldn't handle being in any unit with blacks or latinos or Jews, would you accommodate that as well? Ultimately, leadership of an organization determines what is and is not to be treated as tolerable. And by extension, it is intolerable for one not to tolerate that which the leadership has ruled is tolerable.</p>stam.scribe commented on 'Solving a problem begins by calling it by its proper name'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef0162ff3738e6970d2012-01-08T09:40:30Z2012-01-08T09:40:30Zstam.scribehttp://www.stamink.comI must say that was a bit nervous as I started reading this — you and I have had our...<p>I must say that was a bit nervous as I started reading this — you and I have had our differences over the years, particularly with regard to the Charedi world… Thank you so much for a balanced and fair perspective on this issue.</p>
<p>p.s. It's good to see you back in my RSS feed ;-)</p>