Comments on A rant delayedTypePad2009-07-08T08:32:59ZDavid Bognerhttps://www.treppenwitz.com/tag:typepad.com,2003:https://www.treppenwitz.com/2009/07/a-rant-delayed/comments/atom.xml/treppenwitz commented on 'A rant delayed'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef011571f58644970b2009-07-11T21:21:23Z2009-07-11T21:21:23Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.comMich ... Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't get your last comment. Having children is everyone's right. We pay...<p>Mich ... Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't get your last comment. Having children is everyone's right. We pay taxes so that our children can have a quality education. Last time I checked there was no limit placed on the number of children a family can have. If a school system is overcrowded it is incumbent on the municipality to ensure that proper facilities are provided. If the religious schools are bursting at the seams and the secular ones are empty, that is the result of personal choices and the municipalities can be forgiven for allocating resources where they are needed. That, after all, is their job.</p>Mich commented on 'A rant delayed'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef011571ef328b970b2009-07-10T18:33:40Z2009-07-10T18:33:40ZMichhttp://maspikteruzim.wordpress.com@Batya from Shiloh - One could phrase it differently: there's an irony in the unwillingness of the more observant to...<p>@Batya from Shiloh - One could phrase it differently: there's an irony in the unwillingness of the more observant to accept the results of their lifestyle. By having more children, they overcrowd their classrooms, then expect to receive ready-made buildings from the secular population as a solution. </p>
<p>Empty schools can be converted to community or senior centers. They can also torn down and the land re-zoned for residential or commercial use, or even a much needed green space. Just because a building was once a school does not mean it has to remain so forever and ever. </p>nr commented on 'A rant delayed'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef011570fa5a3a970c2009-07-10T18:32:20Z2009-07-10T18:32:20ZnrAs an American, just replace the word Black for Chabad and see how this story reads. The secular Jews are...<p>As an American, just replace the word Black for Chabad and see how this story reads. The secular Jews are the ones with the irrational fears here - and what are they so afraid of? That they can't dress immodesty on the street? That they might have to be considerate of someone else's feelings? You've got to be kidding? Talk about pathetic!</p>Batya from Shiloh commented on 'A rant delayed'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef011570f6f0cc970c2009-07-10T09:59:38Z2009-07-10T09:59:38ZBatya from Shilohhttp://shilohmusings.blogspot.com/There's an irony in unwillingness of the less observant to accept the results of their lifestyle. By having fewer children,...<p>There's an irony in unwillingness of the less observant to accept the results of their lifestyle. By having fewer children, their classrooms and schools empty out. It's not financially viable to support empty schools. Religious people have more children, overcrowding their schools. Why build more buildings when there are empty ones. So secular schools must consolidate.<br />
It's called supply and demand, a western freedom. To oppose it is to be totalitarian...</p>Barzilai commented on 'A rant delayed'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef011570f148a8970c2009-07-09T14:57:05Z2009-07-09T14:57:05ZBarzilaihttp://www.havolim.blogspot.comAvi, thanks. I think that's what civilized society most requires: an inclination "to search for a resolution instead of searching...<p>Avi, thanks. I think that's what civilized society most requires: an inclination <br />
"to search for a resolution instead of searching for conflict."</p>psachya commented on 'A rant delayed'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef011571ded51a970b2009-07-09T01:27:12Z2009-07-09T01:27:12ZpsachyaTrep - Right you are! That's what happens when I try using words of more than three syllables. My bad....<p>Trep -<br />
Right you are! That's what happens when I try using words of more than three syllables. My bad. :S<br />
</p>Avi commented on 'A rant delayed'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef011570e8809c970c2009-07-08T21:57:25Z2009-07-08T21:57:25ZAviBarzilai: Avi, what concessions do you think a secular Jew ought to make to not offend his Ultra neighbors? Would...<p>Barzilai: <i>Avi, what concessions do you think a secular Jew ought to make to not offend his Ultra neighbors? Would you discourage a daughter from dressing in a halter top going for a walk? Would you make a barbecue on Tisha Ba'av?</i></p>
<p>First of all, I'm not saying what secular Jews should or should not do. What I am saying is that I believe that most secular Jews share some measure of respect and understanding of the Orthodox way of life, and this allows them to coexist peacefully with the Haredim. From personal experience it is not really that hard, and requires just a minimal amount of consideration and goodwill for ones neighbors. As for people who make barbecues on tisha baav and others who enjoy making provocations to spite the Haredim, they are the ones making the news (literally and figuratively), with the help of the fanatics on the other side. They would probably find it intolerable to live where I live. But they are the minority, and their business with the Haredim is their own. It does not reflect the reality of day to day life in Jerusalem. </p>
<p>I cannot honestly answer your second question (which is a difficult one) because I do not have a daughter. But I believe that in this issue, just like in everything else, it wouldn't be very difficult to find some sort of resolution, as long as one is inclined to search for a resolution instead of searching for conflict. </p>Mark commented on 'A rant delayed'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef011571dcc024970b2009-07-08T20:52:12Z2009-07-08T20:52:12ZMarkI have a rather indelicate question for Andy, and it doesn't really belong on this thread, but I've nowhere else...<p>I have a rather indelicate question for Andy, and it doesn't really belong on this thread, but I've nowhere else to put it for now. Andy, where is the "second best" place (after Efrat) using the criteria you mentioned for your family (or mine, as we are likely quite similar)?</p>
<p>[It's indelicate because I am, in essence, asking about where a like minded person might choose to live if Israel c"v decides to hand Efrat to the Arabs someday]<br />
</p>treppenwitz commented on 'A rant delayed'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef011571dc892b970b2009-07-08T19:22:34Z2009-07-08T19:22:34Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.compsachya... I think you (or your friend) meant heterogeneity.<p>psachya... I think you (or your friend) meant heterogeneity. </p>psachya commented on 'A rant delayed'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef011570e7ab24970c2009-07-08T19:08:53Z2009-07-08T19:08:53ZpsachyaWhen I visited Israel three years ago, I spent a Shabbos at a (Dati Leumi) friend's house in Modiin. When...<p>When I visited Israel three years ago, I spent a Shabbos at a (Dati Leumi) friend's house in Modiin. When I asked what caused them to move there, as opposed to various other cities in Israel, my friend cited the homogeneity of the city's inhabitants. "I may be shomer shabbat," he said, "but I want my kids to know that most chilonim are good people too."</p>
<p>Hopefully, that's the sentiment that will prevail over the next few years. On both sides of the religious spectrum.<br />
</p>Mich commented on 'A rant delayed'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef011570e75973970c2009-07-08T18:17:49Z2009-07-08T18:17:49ZMichhttp://maspikteruzim.wordpress.com@Henya - you wrote: "does seeing religious Jews move in causes secular ones the same anguish as seeing violations of...<p>@Henya - you wrote: <i>"does seeing religious Jews move in causes secular ones the same anguish as seeing violations of Shabbos causes to Orthodox Jews? Somehow I do not think so."</i></p>
<p>I'm curious: why don't you think so? In both cases a group feels that its way of life has been threatened, and that if they allow this violation then life will never be the same and things will only get worse. I may not see either group's feelings as valid, but I have no reason to doubt the depth of emotion or the intensity of the anger. </p>Mich commented on 'A rant delayed'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef011570e743b6970c2009-07-08T18:06:43Z2009-07-08T18:06:44ZMichhttp://maspikterzuim.wordpress.comOnce upon a time, I (female) shared a Jerusalem apartment with two (male) flatmates. The common elements of the apartment...<p>Once upon a time, I (female) shared a Jerusalem apartment with two (male) flatmates. The common elements of the apartment (kitchen, dining room, living room) were Shabbat-friendly. The kitchen was kosher and included a Shabbat urn (purchased by me, the most secular of the trio). The TV and lights remained off on Shabbat. However, what someone did in their own room - work on their computer or listen to music using earphones, for example - was their affair. We equitably divided Pesach cleaning, and no one kept tabs on the other people to see if they went to shul or ate in non-kosher restaurants. We shared a respect for and familiarity with Jewish tradition and a willingness to make this work. </p>
<p>Very few of our friends and colleagues could wrap their heads around the way the apartment functioned. The religious could not imagine men and women in the same apartment; the secular could not imagine keeping the lights and the TV off and not cooking on Shabbat. </p>
<p>Which is a lengthy preamble to saying that it seems to me that positive religious-secular relations can happen on a small scale. I doubt they can work for an entire country, particularly where religion is inextricably bound with politics. </p>Andy Levy-Stevenson commented on 'A rant delayed'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef011571db9423970b2009-07-08T17:28:54Z2009-07-08T17:28:54ZAndy Levy-StevensonAs is so often true, I see this as a macro vs micro issue; how I think the world should...<p>As is so often true, I see this as a macro vs micro issue; how I think the world should be vs how I live my life. </p>
<p>For instance, I think that antibiotics are over prescribed and we're headed for an era of drug-resistant super bugs. But if I have strep, or my kid has an ear infection, I want antibiotics and I want them now.</p>
<p>Similarly for mixed vs homogeneous neighborhoods. I believe that the Israeli practise of separating ourselves into like-thinking communities is terribly destructive - chareidim there, chilonim there, Ethiopians there, Russians there, ad infinitum.</p>
<p>But when my family made aliyah we deliberately chose to move to Efrat because of that homogeneity - Efrat is a "grown-up" community, it's not a community in transition. It is what it is, unlike towns like Bet Shemesh and Modiin which are still developing - and are thus experiencing the tensions of different interest groups pushing for their point of view.</p>
<p>Chareidim wishing to impose right-wing norms on us don't move to Efrat; nor do chilonim who want to develop a non-observant culture here. We are what we are.</p>
<p>It was extremely appealing to us to move to a town with a strong, healthy, and dominant dati leumi outlook, particularly since we came from a small town (in terms of an observant Jewish community) where constant struggles over philosophy led to three Orthodox minyans in a town that can really only support one.</p>
<p>So do I think Israelis should live in mixed neighborhoods? Yes, absolutely. Was I willing to raise my children in such a community? Nope, not something I'm willing to do. So where does that leave us?</p>Barzilai commented on 'A rant delayed'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef011571db3964970b2009-07-08T17:00:01Z2009-07-08T17:00:01ZBarzilaihttp://www.havolim.blogspot.comI wonder if the cyberdovs outnumber the Avis and Aris in Jerusalem. Avi, what concessions do you think a secular...<p>I wonder if the cyberdovs outnumber the Avis and Aris in Jerusalem.<br />
Avi, what concessions do you think a secular Jew ought to make to not offend his Ultra neighbors? Would you discourage a daughter from dressing in a halter top going for a walk? Would you make a barbecue on Tisha Ba'av? I'm not asking in a confrontational way. I just wonder what you do to make your neighborhood a friendly place to live and what you would consider kefiyah datit, religious compulsion.</p>Ilana-Davita commented on 'A rant delayed'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef011571dab4d4970b2009-07-08T16:13:31Z2009-07-08T16:13:31ZIlana-Davitahttp://ilanadavita.wordpress.com/But we all know that in a free market economy, employers can bring pressures to bear on employees to work...<p><em>But we all know that in a free market economy, employers can bring pressures to bear on employees to work when they might otherwise not want to... and employees faced with a choice of adhering to religious law or meeting their family's financial needs may opt for the immediate reward rather than the eternal one.</em><br />
Do you realize that were it not for the words about religion, you would sound like a French socialist? :-)<br />
Maybe I need to explain that at th emoment French MPs are debating whether shops should be open or not on Sundays. As A jew I like the fact that I can buy food on Sunday mornings but (as a Jew again) I understand the need for a day of rest.<br />
To go back to your topic, French Lubavitchers (I don't know any others) make me cringe and are not exactly the most tolerant of people, even (particularly ?) towards their fellow Jews. </p>Ari commented on 'A rant delayed'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef011571da3c0b970b2009-07-08T15:34:14Z2009-07-08T15:34:14ZAriIn a perfect world, freedom of choice and tolerance would carry the day. Some (most?) people like living amongst others...<p>In a perfect world, freedom of choice and tolerance would carry the day. Some (most?) people like living amongst others that look & act similarly; others don't. Extremists on both sides want homogeneity. Tensions often arise when there is a perception the "the other," whether religious or secular, is actively evangelizing or flaunting. </p>Drew commented on 'A rant delayed'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef011571da3af2970b2009-07-08T15:32:48Z2009-07-08T15:32:48ZDrewYour driving analogy brings to mind my oft-repeated explanation of the "three levels of religious observance." I almost always get...<p>Your driving analogy brings to mind my oft-repeated explanation of the "three levels of religious observance." I almost always get a puzzled look when I explain that there are three and only three. And then I explain.</p>
<p>Holding my hand up high, I say "there are the fanatics." Lowering my hand, I add "and then there are the heretics." Finally, placing my hand at a medium height, I note "and then there's YOU -- exactly at the right level of observance."</p>
<p>Yep.</p>
<p>Drew</p>Avi commented on 'A rant delayed'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef011570e56d1e970c2009-07-08T15:29:31Z2009-07-08T15:29:31ZAviAs usual, the media blows this issue way out of proportion. The vast majority of secular Israelis have no problem...<p>As usual, the media blows this issue way out of proportion. The vast majority of secular Israelis have no problem living in the same neighborhood as the Haredim. I'm secular, and I've been living in a "mixed" neighborhood in Jerusalem for the last 7 years. I've never had any problems with my Haredi neighbors on religious grounds. Most of them are very friendly and generous people, and the issues that have come up are much more banal (and much less interesting to see on 8pm news), such as parking space, paying the gardener and dealing with barking dogs. </p>
<p>On the other hand I've never felt the need to drive around the neighborhood or make noise on the shabbat. Not out of "religious coercion" but out of courtesy and respect. It's a very small price to pay for good relations with ones neighbors, and for people who are unwilling to make such minimal compromises, I'd suggest that the problem lies with them and not with the Haredim. Of the many problems that exist in this city, the supposed conflict between the secular and the religious is the one that bothers me the least. In fact, if it wasn't for the media I wouldn't even be aware that such a problem exists. </p>Henya commented on 'A rant delayed'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef011571da0cf9970b2009-07-08T14:45:28Z2009-07-08T14:45:28ZHenyahttp://chickenstitches.blogspot.com/Ahh, but does seeing religious Jews move in causes secular ones the same anguish as seeing violations of Shabbos causes...<p>Ahh, but does seeing religious Jews move in causes secular ones the same anguish as seeing violations of Shabbos causes to Orthodox Jews? Somehow I do not think so. </p>Barzilai commented on 'A rant delayed'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef011570e51933970c2009-07-08T14:13:39Z2009-07-08T14:13:39ZBarzilaihttp://www.havolim.blogspot.comUnfortunately, the Supreme Court was right. Integration of the diametrically opposed groups is impossible in Israel; modern, secularist lifestyles inevitably...<p>Unfortunately, the Supreme Court was right. Integration of the diametrically opposed groups is impossible in Israel; modern, secularist lifestyles inevitably create resentment among the ultra-orthodox, and vice versa. In the twenties, Ben Gurion organized a rally in Warsaw, and the placards read "A Death-Blow to Orthodoxy!" And the riots in Jerusalem about Sabbath observance, which were preceded by riots about autopsies and archeological digs, emphasize the adamant unwillingness of that group to "live and let live." The only hope for Israel is communities like yours, but I don't know if the soil of the Middle East can nurture that exotic plant called tolerance. I look forward to one of your readers proposing something that will lift this gloomy cloud.</p>zahava commented on 'A rant delayed'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef011571d9e3fd970b2009-07-08T14:12:18Z2009-07-08T14:12:19ZzahavaBare midriffs and tefillin never killed anyone... but the same can't be said for intolerance. As we are rapidly approaching...<p><i>Bare midriffs and tefillin never killed anyone... but the same can't be said for intolerance.</i></p>
<p>As we are rapidly approaching the 3 weeks (period between 17th Tammuz and the 9th of Av commemorating the destruction of the first and second Temples), it bears repeating that it was sinat chinam (baseless hatred) which caused the destruction of our Temple and led to our exile....</p>
<p>I'm just sayin'....</p>treppenwitz commented on 'A rant delayed'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef011571d9cf89970b2009-07-08T14:02:14Z2009-07-08T14:02:14Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.comcyberdov... Color me disappointed. I'll have to go back and see if maybe my sense of your past comments was...<p>cyberdov... Color me disappointed. I'll have to go back and see if maybe my sense of your past comments was wrong, but I had been under the impression that you were a fairly reasonable person. Did you not read my last line? By saying 'those people' you are painting the entire religious community with a very broad brush (something I admit have occasionally done to both the secular and religious as well). But the residents of Mea Shearim are not Lubavitchers (for the most part), and I think you are sorely mistaken if you think that there are no zealots among the secular community. Just read the underlying invective in the two comments attributed to Meretz members in the article I quoted. Please feel free to take a second pass at this topic, but try to use some judgement and restraint if you do.</p>
<p>The Observer... Sometimes we are our own worst enemies. This is one of the reasons I am so in favor of mixed neighborhoods and the various populations in Israel knowing one another on a personal level rather than as 'those people'. Bare midriffs and tefillin never killed anyone... but the same can't be said for intolerance.</p>The Observer commented on 'A rant delayed'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef011571d98444970b2009-07-08T13:14:27Z2009-07-08T13:14:27ZThe ObserverThere was a case in the late '90's involving the building of a Chabad School in Rehovot on a parcel...<p>There was a case in the late '90's involving the building of a Chabad School in Rehovot on a parcel across a large street from a new, secular, neighbourhood. Planning permission had been given long before the new apartment blocks went up, and there had been a sign announcing the project on the site for years. Am Chofshi took the case to the High Court to stop the school. The same High Court that has no problem with Jews and Arabs living together took judicial notice from the bench that secular and religious Jews cannot live in the same neighbourhood. </p>cyberdov commented on 'A rant delayed'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef011570e49c7d970c2009-07-08T12:37:24Z2009-07-08T12:37:24Zcyberdovhttp://www.cyberdov.comNot the same. The secular residents of RA are reacting to what they see going on in Jerusalem. 'Those people'...<p>Not the same. The secular residents of RA are reacting to what they see going on in Jerusalem. 'Those people' have proven themselves - for many years - as wanting to enforce their way of life onto others. RA residents want to be free to wear what they like and drive when they want without fear of harassment. They do not want to force the religious to become secular.<br />
The religious zealots, on the other hand, clearly want to force others to conform to their modes of behaviour.</p>