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Tuesday, January 20, 2009

You say you want to understand...

So go read this.   All of it.

Then you'll understand.

Posted by David Bogner on January 20, 2009 | Permalink

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Those who care already understand. Mr. de Winter's words are wasted on those who don't care. You have your ancestral land back; you and your people have prospered there despite the best attempts of your enemies. That's no coincidence.

Posted by: Karl Newman | Jan 20, 2009 11:18:27 PM

Sorry, it may have been very well written, but I couldn't get past the fact that right next to the article was a big ad for "Joe the Plumber's Battlefield Reports". Hard to take the article seriously after that.

Posted by: dfb1968 | Jan 20, 2009 11:31:18 PM

It doesn't really matter.

Ahmadinejad is going to Nuke Israel and that is all but a fact of history.

I have already mentality prepared myself for it. It is like it has already happened it is so certain.

You are all alone Israel. You don't have anyone.

Posted by: Steve | Jan 21, 2009 8:33:56 AM

Perhaps it will be a Jeopardy question like in 2030 or so.

After returning from a personal summit with this leader the US President called this man "a man of reason who we can work together with". Later that day, this man launched a nuclear attack wiping out the state of Israel.

Who is um, um Hussein?

Sorry that's not the answer we were looking for. The correct answer is who is Ahmadinejad. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad President of Iran. Pick a square.

Posted by: Jack | Jan 21, 2009 9:07:32 AM

Oh c'mon. First they have to actually build a working weapon, then they have to build one small enough be used in the warhead of a missile. Then they have to build enough of those weapons to be able to overwhelm the Israeli ABM systems. But before that happens, Ahmadinajad has to gain enough power in the Iranian political system to get control of those weapons, because he is nothing more than a puppet. It's the ayatollahs who control Iran, not Ahmadinajad. The ayatollahs may be evil, but they aren't stupid. They are corrupt and use their positions for personal gain. You can't make money if you are turned into radioactive ash by an Israeli counter-strike.

The Iranian nuclear program is a threat to everyone in the region, but to say that those weapons will be used on Israel is going too far. Having nukes would give Iran prestige and would act as a security blanket for Iran's terrorist activities. A nation with a viable nuclear deterrent can't be taken down like Iraq was.

Chill.

Posted by: Karl Newman | Jan 21, 2009 9:26:51 AM

I found De Winter's piece interesting, but I think Karl Newman is right in that it won't necessarily persuade people who have already made up their minds that Israel is perpetually and eternally in the wrong. Here are the reasons (in the mind of a "progressive" thinker):
1) De Winter's piece (and others like it) are written by Westerners who "demonize" Arabs and can't be trusted.
2) It is too politically incorrect to imagine that there are people in the world that crazy. Especially if their skin is dark.
3) Even if one could imagine such a crazy bunch of people, it would be too politically incorrect to say so in the climate of Western "progressive" thought.

In the world of "progressive" thought, the number one assumption seems to be that everyone in the world is like us Westerners: lovers of freedom, supporters of a free market system, and interested in "just getting along" with others. If there are people in the world who fail to live according to those great ideals, it must be because there are outside forces (rather than forces from within) preventing them. To venture too far from those assumptions could get one branded a racist and intolerant, and lose one's cred with other "progressives." Better to let one's ideals, emotions, and love of the underdog inform one's opinions than face difficult, disturbing, almost incredible facts.

Posted by: Shimshonit | Jan 21, 2009 11:45:36 AM

Sad. Reminds me of a bully in school - if you managed to beat the crap out of him in defence as he tried bullying you, he'd be the first to report you to the principal, and before you knew it, the whole school would label you bully.

Posted by: Rami | Jan 21, 2009 1:45:45 PM

"The ayatollahs may be evil, but they aren't stupid."

Some people just want to watch the world burn and don't care about the consequences.

Besides their reward will be the virgins up in heaven so they think.

Posted by: Jeff | Jan 21, 2009 5:07:50 PM

Some men aren't looking for anything logical - they can't be bought. bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. some men just want to watch the world burn.

The Iranians really don't think like we do. They see freeing the world of Jews as a supreme act of religious devotion and whatever punishment they might receive on earth for this act would be small compared to the rewards they will receive in heaven.

Also, it would be a great honour historically for them to be forever known as the people who freed the world from Israel.

Also this for them would return some Messiah for them so this messiah could stop any nukes thrown back at them.

They don't think rationally in the sense we do. That is why to us they might seem irrational. But if you consider their "logic" then you can understand where they are coming from.

They really do want to see the world burn. They see it as a purification rite.

Posted by: Frank | Jan 21, 2009 5:19:02 PM

Some people just want to watch the world burn and don't care about the consequences.

They really do want to see the world burn. They see it as a purification rite.

Yep, some do. But what you both are missing is the true nature of the Iranian religious leadership. First: The ayatollahs run the country, not Ahmadinajad. He's a puppet. If he gets too out of line they will make him go away. There is speculation among Iran watchers that the ayatollahs that they aren't happy with Ahmadinajad's endless belligerence. Saber rattling is bad for business and their business is putting the Iranian people's money in their own foreign bank accounts. Second: The ayatollahs are divided. No one person calls the shots in Iran. A few of the ayatollahs are hard-cord Islamic extremists who don't care about the consequences. Several are making big bucks through corruption. Neither has a complete grip on the reins of power. So to say that Iran will nuke Israel the moment they gain nuclear weapons is not correct. There are too many variables involved.

Posted by: Karl Newman | Jan 21, 2009 7:36:54 PM

If a day comes when the world of Islam is duly equipped with the arms Israel has in possession . . . application of an atomic bomb would not leave anything in Israel, but the same thing would just produce damages in the Muslim world.

-- "Pragmatic Conservative" Ayatollah Rafsanjani

Wise up, Karl.

Posted by: Charles Martel | Jan 23, 2009 3:17:59 AM

Well, I thought it was a beautifully executed conceit and am sending it around. Todah.

Posted by: AZZenny | Jan 23, 2009 8:35:22 AM

What Mr De Winter is depicting/documenting is mutually assured misery, and its participants' consequent (and twistedly rational) desire for mutually assured destruction instead. The whole mindset is obviously mad and pointless.

There is a difference between madness and ideologically excused hatred. This difference is largely rooted in risk analysis. A terrorist who's given up hope wouldn't feel they have anything to lose; a government should see and weigh the risks, and nearly always will do.

PS Why does anybody automatically assume that the Iranian government is going to nuke anybody, whether Iran has or doesn't have the means to do it?

Posted by: F.M. | Jan 27, 2009 2:05:49 PM

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