Comments on The redemption of Germany... and perhaps the OlympicsTypePad2007-12-10T11:06:39ZDavid Bognerhttps://www.treppenwitz.com/tag:typepad.com,2003:https://www.treppenwitz.com/2007/12/when-second-cha/comments/atom.xml/Jany commented on 'The redemption of Germany... and perhaps the Olympics'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ee86288332007-12-12T13:43:50Z2008-02-14T04:53:47ZJanyIn my opinion, Germany is nowadays perfectly able to assure the security needed for such an event, it has been...<p>In my opinion, Germany is nowadays perfectly able to assure the security needed for such an event, it has been proved last year, during the football world cup.<br />
</p>Mordechai commented on 'The redemption of Germany... and perhaps the Olympics'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ee95f88332007-12-12T01:03:28Z2008-02-14T04:53:54ZMordechaiGiven Munich's past, this is why I always thought Ofra Haza's coming in second place during Eurovision 1983, which was...<p>Given Munich's past, this is why I always thought Ofra Haza's coming in second place during Eurovision 1983, which was held in Munich, was so amazing. For those who are too young to recall, the song she performed was "Chai" and oddly enough it became quite a popular song in Europe in the early 1980s. </p>
<p>Here's a link to the performance:http://youtube.com/watch?v=tqPGYSWnSFg&feature=related</p>matlabfreak commented on 'The redemption of Germany... and perhaps the Olympics'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ee45c88332007-12-11T19:30:21Z2008-02-14T04:53:07Zmatlabfreakhttp://matlabfreak.blogspot.comDavid, While I don't think that your argument is wholly inaccurate, I want to point out a few things -...<p>David,</p>
<p>While I don't think that your argument is wholly inaccurate, I want to point out a few things - including as they relate to your reponse to chonthek. </p>
<p>No country in 1972 was really prepared to deal with terrorism from a domestic perspective. Israel always addressed things from a military standpoint, with often disastrous results. While Sayeret Matkal has had some impressive and high-profile successes, most of these have been in a theater for which they are trained - commando raids on Beirut, a hostage rescue operation in Uganda with zero backup, lots of operations deep in Egypt during the war of attrition, etc, etc. They also have spectacular failures - the Maalot massacre is the biggest one, but included were the Coastal Road massacre, the Savoy Hotel hostage situation, etc. Every one of these cases was a domestic hostage situation with Palestinian terrorists, and each resulted in a rescue operation with a heavy toll on the hostages.</p>
<p>Partly as a result of these failures, Israel founded YAMAM, the civilian counterterrorist force. They are trained specifically for this sort of operation, and have been used extensively and with a great deal of success. Sayeret Matkal is now used for foreign counteterrorism, where they can do the most good.</p>
<p>Just as Israel realized that a military spec ops unit was not the best for dealing with domestic hostage situations and developed YAMAM, so too did Germany realize that their response to the Munich massacre was completely inadequate and developed GSG-9. GSG-9 has an impressive operational record, and I have no doubt that they are among the premier civilian CT units in the world. Perhaps not as good as Israeli CT units, but pretty much no one else has the experience that Israel does.</p>
<p>As for the rest, I think that your reading of events is a bit uncharitable. Yes, there were serious mistakes made during the Munich Games. I think that the mistakes made by law enforcement were terrible (though I admit I can't really blame them for being leery of allowing foreign troops to operate on their soil), and some of the choices made by the Olympic Committee were ridiculous.</p>
<p>Neither of THESE, though, suggest Munich shouldn't be used again. The first issue has been remedied as much as possible (pretty much no other country would be able to do better), and the second is an issue with politics in the IOC, which is a major issue, but not tied to Munich.</p>
<p>You could reasonably argue that we should reform the IOC or boycott the Olympics entirely, and you could have reasonably argued in the past that until Germany developed a viable domestic CT option, they should not be allowed to host the games.</p>
<p>As for the choice of Munich itself, I think it's a simple matter of logistics. There aren't too many options out there for most countries - the US is rather unique in that regard - for a city with the required climate, facilities, infrastructure, money, etc. AFAIK, Berlin and Hamburg are two other decent possibilities in general (though I don't know specifics; just going by their status as major cities - you might be able to add Cologne), but Munich might be better positioned to win for a relatively close Winter Games. There might be a desire to show that they can 'do it right', but I think it would be in <em>acknowledgement</em> of past mistakes, rather than an attempt to erase them.</p>
<p>I agree it would be appropriate for them to publicly acknowledge the massacre at the Games with a ceremony or somesuch, but your strong objections to even consider having the Games there seem a bit over the top.</p>
<p>Just my two cents, though - I could always be wrong.</p>
<p>Ender</p>treppenwitz commented on 'The redemption of Germany... and perhaps the Olympics'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550526d8088342007-12-11T14:26:06Z2008-02-14T04:53:04Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.comchonthek... First of all, you missed an important distinction. I personally have no problem with the law regarding German troops...<p>chonthek... First of all, you missed an important distinction. I personally have no problem with the law regarding German troops not being able to operate within Germany. In fact given the past I think it a fantastic thing. However my point was that lacking a military solution to domestic terror, this is a cause for concern. Yes, there is a well trained police unit now, but unlike a military force which can hone its skills in real life situations, the experience the police has in dealing with terrorists is purely theoretical. I am not suggesting arbitrarily punishing Munich. I'm just saying that the decision to have Munich host the games again is not as simple as say, having Tokyo host them a second time. No tragedy (that I know of) happened in Tokyo. No nation's sensitivities need to be taken into considerations when awarding the games to Innsbruck. My point is that if the Olympic committee is willing to take into consideration the sensitivities of 'some members of the Olympic community' when refusing to hold a memorial for those murdered at the 72 games, how much more sensitive should they be to the feelings of the nation from which the victims came??? Now, in response to your inquiry about "historic willingness to comply with the smallest demands of terrorist organizations", please see <a href="http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1196847303323&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull" rel="nofollow">this news article</a> from yesterday. Despite specific requests from the US and Israel not to release convicted terrorists (who were serving life sentences) early from prison (so as not to remove a bargaining chip with Iran) Germany opted to give convicted murderers a free pass! By doing this they removed a potential bargaining chip with Iran and sent a clear sign of weakness to all terrorists. This is NOT the country that should be hosting the Olympics!</p>
<p>soccer dad... You know, the memory is the second thing to go. ;-)</p>
<p>nrg... I assure you that I didn't shoot the arrow and paint the bulls-eye afterwards. Please see my reply to chonthek above.</p>nrg commented on 'The redemption of Germany... and perhaps the Olympics'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ee77188332007-12-11T13:31:16Z2008-02-14T04:53:39ZnrgChonthek has eloquently expressed what I was trying to organize in my brain when I first read this post and...<p>Chonthek has eloquently expressed what I was trying to organize in my brain when I first read this post and moved on until such time as I was able to respond. <br />
The no German troops in Germany gripe you had was one that I didn't quite understand. And I think you unjustly blame a city and country for actions taken by its leaders and those of the Olympic committee almost 40 years ago. Seems unfair. </p>
<p>Sometimes your conclusion drawing hops over a number of stages in my logic filter. It just seems like you have already concluded/judged and write the arguement to make the puzzle pieces fit. I think a big reason for Munich, by the way, is that Germany's mountains worth skiing on or doing any winter sports in are pretty much found in Bavaria. Munich is the capital of Bavaria. It has the infrastructure and ability to house that kind of arrangement. It seems like you look for the hidden meaning (often negative) where there might not be anything at all. Just my observation. </p>soccer dad commented on 'The redemption of Germany... and perhaps the Olympics'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052720d88342007-12-11T03:38:13Z2008-02-14T04:53:49Zsoccer dadhttp://soccerdad.baltiblogs.comYou did. My bad. In my memory, though, he was more the villain than the Germans.<p>You did. My bad.</p>
<p>In my memory, though, he was more the villain than the Germans.</p>chonthek commented on 'The redemption of Germany... and perhaps the Olympics'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ee81888332007-12-10T23:35:03Z2008-02-14T04:53:45ZchonthekI find it interesting that you are criticizing the ban of the German army to be employed within German borders,...<p>I find it interesting that you are criticizing the ban of the German army to be employed within German borders, since there is a quite good reason for this. Instead, Germany has the GSG 9, the police counter-terrorism unit, which was specifically created in response to the events of 1972, and is generally considered to be one of the best in the world. I also have trouble seeing the "historic willingness to comply with the smallest demands of terrorist organizations" (see for example the hijacking of the Landshut). Indeed, if you think Germany is not safe enough for the Olympic games, then there are probably not a lot of countries that are.</p>
<p>Anyway, my main beef with this article is that you link the mistakes made in 1972 to the abstract entities "Germany" and "Munich", and not, for example, to the German government of 1972 or to the Olympic committee. I can very much see your uneasiness and doubts as to whether remembrance will be treated adequately, but why exactly does Munich have to "redeem" itself? What mistake did "Munich" or "Germany" make, as opposed to a bunch of people, some of which were German, and maybe some of which were from Munich? You are drawing a parallel here to Germany trying to redeem itself of its military past, but there is no real parallel; the latter indeed concerns mistakes and crimes that weigh upon pretty much the whole German people, but the former doesn't.<br />
</p>treppenwitz commented on 'The redemption of Germany... and perhaps the Olympics'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ee1ff88332007-12-10T22:56:32Z2008-02-14T04:52:44Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.commata hari... That's one conclusion you can draw. But another is 'what kind of country considers it inappropriate/objectionable to memorialize...<p>mata hari... That's one conclusion you can draw. But another is 'what kind of country considers it inappropriate/objectionable to memorialize innocent athletes who were killed while competing at the Olympics... and do we want them hosting the games?' Yet another is 'do we want such countries to be able to compete in the games? </p>
<p>soccer dad... Oh, I mentioned him. Read again. :-)</p>
<p>Miss Worldwide... Young lady you had us worried sick! :-)</p>Miss Worldwide commented on 'The redemption of Germany... and perhaps the Olympics'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ee8bb88332007-12-10T20:52:23Z2008-02-14T04:53:49ZMiss Worldwidehttp://missworldwide.blogspot.comThanks for that, very interesting post, I only knew very vaguely about all this. And thanks for worrying about me,...<p>Thanks for that, very interesting post, I only knew very vaguely about all this. And thanks for worrying about me, I'm back now!! ;) </p>soccer dad commented on 'The redemption of Germany... and perhaps the Olympics'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550526c0888342007-12-10T19:47:10Z2008-02-14T04:52:48Zsoccer dadhttp://soccerdad.baltiblogs.comYou left out another villain in the massacre: Avery Brundage. It was he who refused to boycott the 1936 Olympics...<p>You left out another villain in the massacre:<br />
Avery Brundage. It was he who refused to boycott the 1936 Olympics and refused to cancel the remaining games after the massacre in 1972.</p>mata hari commented on 'The redemption of Germany... and perhaps the Olympics'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ee8ac88332007-12-10T17:54:15Z2008-02-14T04:53:49Zmata harihttp://matahari3.blogspot.comDavid - very clearly and well written. i had known about the munich olympics, but when i saw all the...<p>David - very clearly and well written. i had known about the munich olympics, but when i saw all the details listed here in black and white - well, the reactions are horrific. why would another city in germany be better? they had their second chance, i don't see why they deserve yet another.</p>