Comments on A line in the sandTypePad2007-12-20T11:21:55ZDavid Bognerhttps://www.treppenwitz.com/tag:typepad.com,2003:https://www.treppenwitz.com/2007/12/a-line-in-the-s/comments/atom.xml/Apply food stamp commented on 'A line in the sand'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef010534bac5f1970b2008-09-22T08:11:25Z2008-09-22T08:11:25ZApply food stamphttp://applyfoodstamp.comI wanted to research this subject and write a paper. Your post what a thousand words would not. Nice job....<p>I wanted to research this subject and write a paper. Your post what a thousand words would not. Nice job. <br />
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http://applyfoodstamp.com</p>Dina commented on 'A line in the sand'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052732888342007-12-24T00:12:51Z2008-02-14T04:53:58ZDinaInteresting definitions in Funk & Wagnalls New Standard Dictionary (1941): Zionism, n. A wide-spread movement among the Jews, arising out...<p>Interesting definitions in Funk & Wagnalls New Standard Dictionary (1941):</p>
<p>Zionism, n. </p>
<p>A wide-spread movement among the Jews, arising out of their almost world-wide persecution, and having in view the solution of the Jewish question by a resettlement of the Jews in Palestine. The form which lays stress upon the political questions involved is sometimes called "political Zionism" and the term "religious Zionism" is used by those Zionists who lay a special stress upon the regeneration of the Holy Land as a center of social and religious influence for Judaism.</p>
<p>Zionward, adv.</p>
<p>Toward Zion, especially in the figurative sense; heavenward.</p>
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</p>treppenwitz commented on 'A line in the sand'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ee3d788332007-12-23T14:04:26Z2008-02-14T04:53:03Ztreppenwitzhttp://www.treppenwitz.comQuietusLeo... So long as there are those who find it objectionable (actually, a deal breaker), it needs to be mentioned....<p>QuietusLeo... So long as there are those who find it objectionable (actually, a deal breaker), it needs to be mentioned.</p>
<p>psachya... I'd be happy with just one battle in which we didn't have both arms tied behind our backs.</p>
<p>chavah... With all due respect, i have enough to keep track of here at home to contemplate the plight of people who may or may not be Jewish in central Africa. For what it's worth, I mentioned Uganda to illustrate what a tragedy it would have been had Herzl accepted.</p>
<p>Maya... You know what I'm thinking, right? ;-)</p>
<p>Back of the Hill... IT always irks me when the Muslims claim that Israel discriminates against other religious. I can't think of a more tolerant religion (or a state that practices more tolerance).</p>
<p>Rahel... Oh, but is is about land. They want the land very badly. The other stuff is just an excuse to get us off of it.</p>
<p>Rami... pretty much.</p>
<p>Miss Worldwide... I'll take that for concurrence. :-)</p>
<p>asher... I think you had a good observation there somewhere but it got sidelined by your personal politics. Care to give it another try? :-)</p>
<p>Jack... We didn't ask them to recognize us as a Jewish state. They brought the issue up as a precondition to discussing anything else. That sort of brings the issue front and center, wouldn't you say?</p>
<p>tnspr569... The real telling thing about most of our 'leaders' is where their own children are today. The long list of nations where they reside does not include Israel.</p>
<p>Lisa... There are many countries that have state religions (i.e. the Church of England, etc.) but Which do not define themselves as a Christian state per se. </p>
<p>aliyah06... Oh yeah, and don't forget the 'I do it so why can't you' argument of cutting corners in religion. :-)</p>
<p>amir... See my reply to Jack. </p>
<p>Wry Mouth... The place it pains me is further south. :-)</p>Wry Mouth commented on 'A line in the sand'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5505272c388342007-12-23T01:10:33Z2008-02-14T04:53:54ZWry Mouthhttp://wrymouth.com"Speaking in English and Arabic, Sabbah told reporters that Israel must abandon its Jewish character in favor of a “normal...<p>"Speaking in English and Arabic, Sabbah told reporters that Israel must abandon its Jewish character in favor of a “normal state for Christians, Muslims, and Jews. If there’s a state of one religion, other religions are naturally discriminated against.”</p>
<p>Long live religious discrimination! I have no problem with Muslim, Jewish and Christian and etc. countries. I'd think the Ay-rabs would be thanking their lucky stars that the Jews only want one country. Most of the other religions seem intent on many, many countries. </p>
<p>I teach in a weird thing: a non-religiously sponsored private school that accepts all denominations (including some budding atheists) for courses. In that sense, we are an "American" school -- the rules of the game here are different, and no religion is to be established as a federal religion. </p>
<p>But ask those from Utah if Utah is a Mormon state. It pretty much is, and I pretty much don't care whether it is or not.</p>
<p>I *like* different flavors; I *like* variety.</p>
<p>That doesn't mean I need to like all flavors, though. </p>
<p>It's pathetic and sad that the world can't take a glance at the Middle East, and see what the Jews have done with their little piece of sand, relative to all the long-standing countries around them, and conclude that maybe the Jews know what they're doing.</p>
<p>Sheesh.</p>
<p>I also know which country would top my list of Middle East countries to visit, and that country would remain the same regardless of whether I were Christian or not.</p>
<p>Except -- perversely -- for Islam. </p>
<p>I guess they must still be pissed off by the whole Ishmael v. Isaac thing. </p>
<p>If it makes *my* head hurt, I can only imagine how much it pains Zionist Jews.</p>amir commented on 'A line in the sand'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5505272c888342007-12-22T21:19:46Z2008-02-14T04:53:55ZamirWhoops. I meant to say I agreed with Jack's statement above. When I saw where my name popped up relative...<p>Whoops. I meant to say I agreed with Jack's statement above. When I saw where my name popped up relative to my comment (after) I realize I had attributed comments to the wrong name.</p>amir commented on 'A line in the sand'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ee60c88332007-12-22T21:12:23Z2008-02-14T04:53:22ZamirI agree with Asher's comment above. What does it mean to be recognized as a ?Jewish state"? The United States...<p>I agree with Asher's comment above. What does it mean to be recognized as a ?Jewish state"? The United States has relations with Israel. Has it formally recognized that Israel is a "Jewish state"? Israel IS the "Jewish" state. Any country recognizing Israel de facto recognizes the Jewish state. Has Egypt recognized Israel as a Jewish state? Does Israel recognize that Egypt is an "Arab" republic? I'm not asking these questions rhetorically, since I really don't know the answer.</p>
<p>[pause]</p>
<p>ok, I just went to the actual text of the Arab-Egypt peace treaty at http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Process/Guide%20to%20the%20Peace%20Process/Israel-Egypt%20Peace%20Treaty and did control F and looked for jew or jewish and those words do not appear anywhere in the treaty. The word Arab appears in the first sentence: "The Government of the Arab Republic of Egypt and the Government of the State of Israel"</p>aliyah06 commented on 'A line in the sand'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5505273b288342007-12-22T18:32:35Z2008-02-14T04:54:08Zaliyah06http://www.bakadiary.blogspot.comMy colleagues couldn't understand why I refused to attend training conferences on Saturdays.....I often got the "just this one time?"...<p>My colleagues couldn't understand why I refused to attend training conferences on Saturdays.....I often got the "just this one time?" request for Saturday trainings and court hearings on Rosh HaShanah....don't even get me started on the theological discussions....</p>Lisa commented on 'A line in the sand'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ee92188332007-12-21T16:25:31Z2008-02-14T04:53:53ZLisaOh, and don't discount the importance of sheer numbers in deciding what religious holidays to observe publicly. I grew up...<p>Oh, and don't discount the importance of sheer numbers in deciding what religious holidays to observe publicly. I grew up in a town where most of the students but few of the teachers and school administrators were Jewish. They used to keep school open on Yom Kippur but finally gave up since hardly any kids showed up for class; they ended up making it an official school holiday.</p>Lisa commented on 'A line in the sand'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550526cce88342007-12-21T16:22:22Z2008-02-14T04:52:56ZLisaIt's not just the Vatican, either, that has had a state church. In Sweden, until 1996, all children automatically became...<p>It's not just the Vatican, either, that has had a state church. In Sweden, until 1996, all children automatically became members of the Lutheran Church of Sweden at birth, if at least one of their parents was a member. </p>
<p>I remember visiting a distant relative, an American Jewish expat, in Stockholm in 1999. He was not happy that the rule applied to the children he had with his Swedish wife.</p>tnspr569 commented on 'A line in the sand'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052725788342007-12-21T14:24:24Z2008-02-14T04:53:51Ztnspr569After all this time, we still don't have the guts to stand up for ourselves and expect recognition of these...<p>After all this time, we still don't have the guts to stand up for ourselves and expect recognition of these basic rights...very sad. There's a serious lack of Jewish pride there.</p>
<p>It's a shame that these "leaders" don't believe that we have the right to defend ourselves against those who seek to destroy the Jewish people. </p>
<p>Why should we have to "ask" for these basic, inalienable rights? What is wrong with these "leaders" who value the lives of our enemies more than the lives of our own people?</p>
<p>Sickening and disturbing.</p>Jack commented on 'A line in the sand'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503eeb1388332007-12-21T12:33:22Z2008-02-14T04:54:24ZJackhttp://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.comIt is time to stop asking the world to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. We know it is and...<p>It is time to stop asking the world to recognize Israel as a Jewish state.</p>
<p>We know it is and so do the Arabs and much of the rest of the world.</p>
<p>By asking for recognition we give the impression that it is open for discussion.</p>
<p>It is not. End of story, next discussion. </p>asher commented on 'A line in the sand'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550526e7988342007-12-21T12:16:04Z2008-02-14T04:53:12Zasher The point being that basing a case on a dictionary definition is not the strongest argument. Also, as a Jew...<p>The point being that basing a case on a dictionary definition is not the strongest argument.<br />
Also, as a Jew I get a whole looad of limitations placed upon me, such as who I can marry, where I can work, that any other state would have been branded as anti-semitic were it to enact such laws.<br />
For example I can't work in the Carmel wineries because I don't keep Shabbat, and my wife can't teach in the state-religious school system (can't teach geology or geography that is, never mind history or even Bible).<br />
Also, any debate about the Jewish nature of Israel is invariably hijacked by the religious-right who insist in pushing the Arab question into everything, as if we founded a state in order to have lots of Arabs to worry about all the time instead of worrying about Jews. Last sentence came out abysmally phrased.<br />
Question is - can you have Jews without non-Jews?<br />
Don't laugh - that is a big question.<br />
After all, the Pope would be happy to wake up and find that everyone in the world had adopted Catholicism, and too many Muslims reckon that the best way to bring a non-believer round is to chop his head off, but where would we be without "who has separated us from among the nations"? <br />
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</p>asher commented on 'A line in the sand'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e55052711b88342007-12-21T10:56:58Z2008-02-14T04:53:40Zasherhttp://www.wargraves.org.ukA country of northern central Africaon the southern Lake Victoria. It was established in 1948 following the British withdrawal from...<p>A country of northern central Africaon the southern Lake Victoria. It was established in 1948 following the British withdrawal from Tanganiayka, which had been divided by recommendation of the United Nations into Jewish and African states</p>Miss Worldwide commented on 'A line in the sand'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ee30688332007-12-21T10:35:09Z2008-02-14T04:52:56ZMiss Worldwidehttp://missworldwide.blogspot.comYeah!<p>Yeah!</p>Rami commented on 'A line in the sand'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ee94988332007-12-21T10:29:00Z2008-02-14T04:53:54ZRamiAllow me to generalize my comment Trep... Some people hate what they cannot understand and conquer!<p>Allow me to generalize my comment Trep... <b>Some people hate what they cannot understand and conquer!</b> </p>Rahel commented on 'A line in the sand'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ee57888332007-12-21T08:57:51Z2008-02-14T04:53:16ZRahelhttp://profile.typekey.com/Rahel/I wonder what would happen to the good patriarch if he were to make his remark with reference to, say,...<p>I wonder what would happen to the good patriarch if he were to make his remark with reference to, say, Saudi Arabia....</p>
<p>For whatever it's worth, I've said for years that our conflict with our neighbors has nothing to do with land.</p>Back of the Hill commented on 'A line in the sand'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550526e8188342007-12-20T22:04:24Z2008-02-14T04:53:12ZBack of the Hillhttp://atthebackofthehill.blogspot.com/Speaking in English and Arabic, Sabbah told reporters that Israel must abandon its Jewish character in favor of a “normal...<p><b>Speaking in English and Arabic, Sabbah told reporters that Israel must abandon its Jewish character in favor of a “normal state for Christians, Muslims, and Jews. If there’s a state of one religion, other religions are naturally discriminated against.” *</b></p>
<p>In a sense he's right. If there's a state of one religion, other religions are in effect discriminated against.</p>
<p>The big question is where is this state of which he speaks? Where?</p>
<p>Israel is not a religious state. The largest ethnic group are the Jews. Many of the Jews are not religious. One could argue that maybe Mea Shearim is a religious state..... </p>
<p>The problem is that the entire world, for perverse and inexplicable reasons, persists in considering Jews in religious terms. Rather than as a nationality, ethnicity, or cultural entity.</p>
<p>This despite the well-known fact that the typical Jew will refuse to attend the same synagogue as the Jew next to him - "<i>this is my shul, that is his shul, and that, well that is the shul neither one of us would be caught dead going to</i>".</p>
<p>Creed-wise there is such a diversity of Judaisms that it makes little or no sense to think of most Jews having the same religious identity.</p>
<p>Israel is a Jewish state. Simple. Iran is a Persian State. Lebanon is an Arab state. </p>
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<p>And as far as religious holidays (or religious gloomy days, such as yesterday, for instance) are concerned, I always check my calendar for the significant days of my customers. I ain't gonna make a collection-call to a Jew on Yom Kippur, a football-fan on superbowl Sunday, or a Chinese person right after Chinese New Year, for example. Doing so would just not be very effective, and rather insensitive.</p>
<p>[Of course the corrollary to that is that I will act hideously offended, if I so chose, when I receive an unwanted phonecall on those days - "<i>I'm sorry, this is really very inconvenient, it's Chinese New Year AND almost sh'kiya!</i>".</p>
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A country of southwest Asia on the eastern Mediterranean Sea. It was established in 1948 following the British withdrawal from Palestine, which had been divided by recommendation of the United Nations into Jewish and Arab states."</p>
<p> The Israeli-Palestinian conversation has become so screwed up that people forget that the so-called "two-state solution" (which you later refer to) has ALREADY BEEN IMPLEMENTED. In 1948. The two states were Jordan and Israel. According to the original Balfour Declaration, Jordan should have been part of Israel. The Palestinians already have their "Arab state in Palestine" - it's called Jordan. And no one ever talks about that anymore. Of course, in a world where Pali "historians" claim that Jerusalem was never Jewish, I guess you have to pick your battles.</p>psachya commented on 'A line in the sand'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5505272b188342007-12-20T13:52:32Z2008-02-14T04:53:54Zpsachya"Israel - A country of southwest Asia on the eastern Mediterranean Sea. It was established in 1948 following the British...<p>"Israel - <br />
A country of southwest Asia on the eastern Mediterranean Sea. It was established in 1948 following the British withdrawal from Palestine, which had been divided by recommendation of the United Nations into Jewish and Arab states."</p>
<p> The Israeli-Palestinian conversation has become so screwed up that people forget that the so-called "two-state solution" (which you later refer to) has ALREADY BEEN IMPLEMENTED. In 1948. The two states were Jordan and Israel. According to the original Balfour Declaration, Jordan should have been part of Israel. The Palestinians already have their "Arab state in Palestine" - it's called Jordan. And no one ever talks about that anymore. Of course, in a world where Pali "historians" claim that Jerusalem was never Jewish, I guess you have to pick your battles.</p>QuietusLeo commented on 'A line in the sand'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5505273b788342007-12-20T13:02:28Z2008-02-14T04:54:09ZQuietusLeohttp://quietusleo.blogspot.comIt's so obvious that it doesn't even need to be uttered. Or, does it?<p>It's so obvious that it doesn't even need to be uttered. Or, does it?</p>