Comments on I [heart] socialized medicine!TypePad2005-05-24T07:39:42ZDavid Bognerhttps://www.treppenwitz.com/tag:typepad.com,2003:https://www.treppenwitz.com/2005/05/i_heart_sociali/comments/atom.xml/Susan R commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503ea12488332006-01-27T09:40:44Z2008-02-14T04:41:21ZSusan Rhttp://www.Fairrx.comIn my view we need to provide some kind of arrangement would have to be made to ensure the affordability...<p>In my view we need to provide some kind of arrangement would have to be made to ensure the affordability of medical school for those interested in becoming doctors<br />
</p>Colin Cumner commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550520f5a88342005-06-17T07:06:30Z2008-02-14T04:36:41ZColin CumnerI find it hard to comprehend the near-hysteria that is generated by the topic of 'socialized medicine' in the U.S....<p>I find it hard to comprehend the near-hysteria that is generated by the topic of 'socialized medicine' in the U.S. Since virtually all of the industrialised nations of the world have some form of 'universal health insurance' to protect their citizens from prohibitive health care costs, it seems ironic, yet tragic, that the allegedly richest country on Planet Earth has no such scheme in place, instead relying on a far more bureaucratically wasteful regime to deliver medical care to those who pay dearly for it through various private 'plans' as offered by the health care industry. Time and time again, we learn of people, often desperately ill, in the U.S. who are denied the care they need because they cannot afford either the insurance premiums or the cost of the treatment. Surely a nation so rich as America can afford to spend at least as much on looking after its population in this area of 'human rights' as it does on Weapons research and dubious Space ventures? Not much good having wonderful new tools of healing if 40 million uninsured people have no access to them? Does money dictate everything in the U.S.A.? </p>Jordan Hirsch commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550520d8088342005-06-03T06:48:02Z2008-02-14T04:36:24ZJordan HirschNo, my wife knows (it was before we dated) and the nurse and I moved on to being friends.<p>No, my wife knows (it was before we dated) and the nurse and I moved on to being friends.</p>Doctor Bean commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550520db888342005-06-02T18:59:46Z2008-02-14T04:36:26ZDoctor Beanhttp://kerckhoff.blogspot.comUm, I guess I'll let Jordan have the last word since we're now talking about some nurse escapade of which...<p>Um, I guess I'll let Jordan have the last word since we're now talking about some nurse escapade of which I and Jordan's wife are blissfully ignorant!</p>
<p>Be well.</p>David commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503e810988332005-06-02T13:55:13Z2008-02-14T04:36:28ZDavidhttp://www.treppenwitz.comJordan... ROFLMAOASCOOMN! [rolling on the floor laughing my ass off and spraying coffee out of my nose]. You're lucky I...<p>Jordan... ROFLMAOASCOOMN! [rolling on the floor laughing my ass off and spraying coffee out of my nose]. You're lucky I know and love both you and your wife or I would be powerless to keep myself from making a rude tongue in, um, cheek comment. :-)</p>Jordan Hirsch commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550520d3088342005-06-02T13:46:24Z2008-02-14T04:36:22ZJordan HirschAh, dr. Bean, I agree that ours is a nation of opportunity, not guaranteed outcome. But there are a few...<p>Ah, dr. Bean, I agree that ours is a nation of opportunity, not guaranteed outcome. But there are a few basics that come with that. What we disagree about are what those basics are. <br />
Your point about whose obligation it is to provide health care is interesting. I guess on the individual level, one might argue that no particular Doctor is obligated. But then again, I never made that claim. My claim has to do with society's obligation to ensure, (and insure) access to health care. I believe that is a human right. <br />
By the way, I have done OK with Red Heaed nurses, even the jewish ones. Dave Bogner is now going to laugh until he pours coffee out of his nose.<br />
</p>Doctor Bean commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503e7fc288332005-06-02T03:58:01Z2008-02-14T04:36:17ZDoctor Beanhttp://kerckhoff.blogspot.comOh, and I also have no problem with redheaded nurses!<p>Oh, and I also have no problem with redheaded nurses!</p>Doctor Bean commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550520d6b88342005-06-02T03:55:23Z2008-02-14T04:36:24ZDoctor Beanhttp://kerckhoff.blogspot.comMr. Hirsch: I appreciate your response, and also appreciate that you must be a good guy as you are pals...<p>Mr. Hirsch: I appreciate your response, and also appreciate that you must be a good guy as you are pals of Bogner's and psychotoddler's. So, since I know none of you personally, I will try to debate with the humility and etiquette befitting an outside geek.</p>
<p>I was actually speaking both legally and morally. Moral rights are always accompanied by equivalent moral obligations. For example, Joe's right not to be murdered places a moral obligation on Mike not to murder him. Meaning Mike does something immoral if he murders Joe. Your (moral not legal) right to healthcare means someone has the moral duty to treat you, and is behaving immorally if he refuses. But no one has that duty. (Again I mean morally; I'm not talking about laws. You actually do have a legal right to emergency care.) Who is obligated to treat you if you're sick? Meaning, who is immoral if you go without care? You may wish you had a right to healthcare, but again, philosophically and morally, that is not where rights originate. The same exact thing goes for the imaginary right to make a living.</p>
<p>I suppose at the base of our differences is that I accept that ours is a nation of opportunity, not of guaranteed outcome. This has created an unimaginably prosperous middle class and a standard of living even for our poor that is much greater than that of socialist paradises in Eastern Europe.</p>
<p>Oh, and I have no problem with drug legalization.</p>Jordan Hirsch commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550520c7b88342005-05-29T03:48:07Z2008-02-14T04:36:15ZJordan HirschDr. bean makes a good point in his response to me, although I consider it somewhat legalistic. It is true...<p>Dr. bean makes a good point in his response to me, although I consider it somewhat legalistic. It is true that I do not have a right as guaranteed in the constitution to make a living, nor does psycho, nor do I have a right as guaranteed in the constitution to health care. <br />
But rights are not strictly defined by what is guaranteed in the Constitution. There is a concept of human rights that I think we as a western democracy adhere to as well, and one could make the argument that access health care is one of them. I also think that earning a living pursuing meaningful work is a human right, and we are entitled to speak of it that way.<br />
The rights that Jefferson spoke of in the Declaration are not legally binding, but they are morally binding, and we might as well try to live up to them. I would argue that Life, liberty, and the pursuit of hapiness fall under ther category of human rights, and include the rights of which I speak.<br />
One of the rights that is guaranteed in the constitution is free speech, which strict constructionists understand to mean political speech. As such, as my as I love my country, I stand by my characterization of it.<br />
As far as statistics go, you are of course correct regarding the statistics you brought. But i would argue that Drug addiction is a health problem, and our country cant seem to stop treating it as a criminal problem, which is why we have been so unsuccessful. You know we could sling statistics at each other ad infinitum, and not get any further. But in a country with as many uninsured as we have, and as many with less than stable insurance, and as many with insurance who still have to go through hoops to get what they need, and anybody who has had a parent suffer a stroke as I have had know of what i speak, that our Health Care system is broke. <br />
As far as nurses go, remember, Norwegians are more common in the old northwest. But I live just outside NYC. So pardon my prediliction for the daughters of the fair isle. </p>David commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503e804e88332005-05-28T18:23:44Z2008-02-14T04:36:22ZDavidhttp://www.treppenwitz.comJohn... It seems as though you have sort of made my point. A country (any country... not just Israel) is...<p>John... It seems as though you have sort of made my point. A country (any country... not just Israel) is responsible to look after its citizens. Most countries also make it difficult to become a citizen (except to repatriate people who have an ancestral connection, in which case there are fast tracks such as Israel's law of return). You are indeed in a difficult position from a healthcare standpoint, but that situation is of your own making. No country in the world can be expected to provide blanket coverage for people who just happen to be in the country, whether as tourists, students or foreign workers. Yes, if you are working, your taxes help finance a system from which you don't receive full benefits. But that isn't to say you don't get any benefits. You live in a free society where the garbage is picked up from the streets... there is a police force and a judiciary... there is a relatively clean, functional infrastructure of roads, bridges and tunnels... and an economy which provides opportunities for citizens and non-citizens alike. If (g-d forbid) you were to be hit by a car, an ambulance would take you to a well-equipped hospital and you would be treated to the full extent of the staff's capabilities without regard to your status or ability to pay. Assuming of course that you survive your ordeal, you would be responsible for either providing some sort of insurance coverage or paying out of pocket... but that would be the case with any foreigner in any foreign land. </p>
<p>I wish you luck.</p>John commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550520c6d88342005-05-27T22:58:43Z2008-02-14T04:36:15ZJohnhttp://johnhleonard.blogspot.comYes, I included the word citizen for a reason...see, it takes years for me to become a citizen in Israel....<p>Yes, I included the word citizen for a reason...see, it takes years for me to become a citizen in Israel. Either I convert (yeah right- don't get me wrong, "some of my best friends are Jews", but my personal religious beliefs conflict.), or I am in a long haul process to become a resident (I've started). Either way, one is not able to enroll in the health insurance system for quite a while. There are gaps. What if I get cancer in those gaps?</p>
<p>My main point was that if I were a tourist, an illegal resident, a legal resident, a person with enough money to buy, ...well, I could buy private insurance coverage in the US. My gripe is that because of the "universal" coverage, there's no basic private insurance to cover those of us that are non-catagorical....not tourists, not yet residents, but might experience health problems while in Israel.</p>
<p>I have a work permit (granted no job- wanna hire me?!). But if I were working, my taxes would support the health care system, but I wouldn't directly benefit from it ... yet.</p>
<p>I agree with you that a country should look after its own first. But deciding what "its own" means in this modern world (in Israel!) is tricky. I just don't want to get tricked or sick.</p>psychotoddler commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550520c5788342005-05-27T19:05:51Z2008-02-14T04:36:14Zpsychotoddlerhttp://psychotoddler.blogspot.comYes, yes, I'm just kidding around with Jordan. We see eye to eye on everything. And I'm also kidding about...<p>Yes, yes, I'm just kidding around with Jordan. We see eye to eye on everything. </p>
<p>And I'm also kidding about the Norwegian nurse. She's actually Korean.</p>Jack commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550520cd588342005-05-27T14:42:34Z2008-02-14T04:36:18ZJackhttp://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/Jack, you can toss my salad anytime! I just love a man with a big bushy beard! How did I...<p><i>Jack, you can toss my salad anytime! I just love a man with a big bushy beard!</i></p>
<p>How did I miss this yesterday. Whoa, maybe my friends at Ohr Sameach were telling the truth about yeshiva life. ;)</p>David commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550520c0b88342005-05-27T14:08:38Z2008-02-14T04:36:12ZDavidhttp://www.treppenwitz.comPsychotoddler... I should point out to the other readers that you and Jordan know one another from the music business....<p>Psychotoddler... I should point out to the other readers that you and Jordan know one another from the music business. Otherwise I would not be pleased with what appears to be taunting. :-) As to your other statement, I would have thought that your pursuit of the Norwegian nurse = my pursuit of happiness.</p>psychotoddler commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503e7f7788332005-05-27T14:02:36Z2008-02-14T04:36:15Zpsychotoddlerhttp://psychotoddler.blogspot.comSo there, Jordan. If you mess with me I will have Dr. Bean taunt you a second time! And I...<p>So there, Jordan. If you mess with me I will have Dr. Bean taunt you a second time! And I happen to be fooling around with a Norwegian nurse.</p>
<p>BTW Bean, my right to earn a living = my pursuit of happiness. Or my escape from unhappiness.</p>David commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5505210cb88342005-05-27T13:15:01Z2008-02-14T04:36:53ZDavidhttp://www.treppenwitz.comJohn... You'll note that in the line you quoted I chose the word 'citizens'. I don't feel that the Israeli...<p>John... You'll note that in the line you quoted I chose the word 'citizens'. I don't feel that the Israeli government (or any government) owes health coverage to tourists, visiting workers or foreign students. When we travel abroad I need to take out (and pay for) a special policy for myself and my family... why should it be any different for someone visiting here? If your answer includes anything that sounds like "but I live here", then you should become a citizen (and inherit all the responsibilities that come along with that status). Foreign workers make up an important segment of the workforce, and often end up doing jobs that Israeli citizens would not want. However, they came here of their own free will. I don't care how horrible the conditions were in their country of origin...if they decided to accept work from an Israeli employer that did not include health insurance, I can't find fault with the system if they get sick and have to pay out of their own pocket for a doctor or hospital visit. The system isn't perfect, but expecting it to take care of the world's refugees and tourists is a bit much to ask.</p>John commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550520cad88342005-05-27T12:19:26Z2008-02-14T04:36:17ZJohnhttp://johnhleonard.blogspot.com..."care for all of it's citizens"... See, that's one problem in Israel. Not everyone that lives here is a citizen....<p>..."care for all of it's citizens"...<br />
See, that's one problem in Israel. Not everyone that lives here is a citizen. I am a non-married partner of an Israeli citizen. As far as state medical benefits are concerned (at least for a year or so), I am nothing. So, I have to buy "tourist insurance" that renews every 6 months. If you develop a condition during the coverage period, it's considered a pre-existing condition the next time you renew coverage. Plus the coverage isn't all that great. But it's much less expensive than the same type of coverage in the US.</p>
<p>I am able to afford this coverage and I guess take the risks associated with this renewal game. However, I see lost of folks from Asia and other regions (people I'm pretty sure aren't Jewish) and I wonder what happens to these folks if they get sick here. Do they get the kind of care they need?</p>David commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550520e8888342005-05-27T09:15:25Z2008-02-14T04:36:33ZDavidhttp://www.treppenwitz.comJordan.. [warning: Irony ahead!] While I may agree with you that the US needs to do everything in its power...<p>Jordan.. [warning: Irony ahead!] While I may agree with you that the US needs to do everything in its power to raise its infant mortality rate, I think it is wildly unfair to make those kinds of accusations against doctors. Many doctors I know drive Jaguars and Mercedes, and I know for a fact that the nurse Doctor Bean is fooling around with isn't even Irish! </p>
<p>Doctor Bean... I don't have much to add to your comment except that both you and Jordan got the infant mortality thing backwards. :-) I happen to know that Jordan is a highly trained professional in a field that requires its practitioners to invest every bit as many years of training and practice (if not more) as anyone in the medical profession. The obvious difference is that he doesn't have to carry an enormous malpractice insurance policy in case he hits a sour note on his trumpet and injures someone's sensibilities. I know Jordan for many years and am 100% certain that if you two were talking face to face (meaning in a forum where you are constantly reminded that there is a real person and at the other end of the argument) that you would still disagree on many points... but you would also learn a great deal from one another. Now I'll butt out. :-)</p>
<p>Kay... Having spent a month in Perth while I was in the Navy I was very impressed with how few of the social problems Australia shares with the US. You may be frustrated with aspects of your healthcare system, but it affords you a peace-of-mind that is lacking in many other places in the world. Governments come and go. I suspect the present Australian leadership's reelection is a reaction to things going on in the world and not local apathy about domestic issues. However, what I don't know about Australian politics could (and does) fill volumes. :-)</p>Kay commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503e864e88332005-05-27T05:53:00Z2008-02-14T04:37:10ZKayhttp://www.kayoz.comJordan - perhaps if a socialised education system accompanied the socialised medical system, the issues of long expensive study periods...<p>Jordan - perhaps if a socialised education system accompanied the socialised medical system, the issues of long expensive study periods would take care of themselves.</p>
<p>David, you said "I would have thought enlightened Australia would be on the leading edge of supporting alternative medicine and such." - You and me both. Except I know just how enlightened Australia is not, and especially just how unenlightened it is becoming under the present government. Sigh.</p>Doctor Bean commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503e7f1488332005-05-27T05:18:21Z2008-02-14T04:36:12ZDoctor Beanhttp://kerckhoff.blogspot.comMr Hirsch: First, I assume you've backed away from calling my nation sleazy. I'm happy to let it drop. If...<p>Mr Hirsch: First, I assume you've backed away from calling my nation sleazy. I'm happy to let it drop. If you stand by that comment, let me know, and I'll be happy to pursue it furhter.</p>
<p>I think you (and many other Americans) misunderstand our rights. Psychotoddler does not have a right to earn a living. He has the opportunity to earn a living, and because he's smart, well educated, and works very hard, he earns a living.</p>
<p>You, moreover, don't have a right to healthcare. You may wish you had a right to healthcare; you may think it sleazy that you don't have a right to healthcare; you might admire nations that collectivize healthcare costs and thereby remove any incentive from delivering excellent healthcare; but rights are not derived from such places.</p>
<p>Let me explain. You have the right to peacefully assemble and worship because that is guaranteed by the Constitution. You have the right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, since the Declaration states that the Creator endows you with these. The Bible commands me not to murder, so you have a right not to be murdered. Tort law gives you the right to sue for various damages. Healthcare, or for that matter, Psychotoddler's right to make a living, are nowhere in there.</p>
<p>I was going to restrain myself (since this isn't my living room) when you called my country sleazy, but what pushed me over the edge is when you used the old slander about infant mortality and life expectancy as a slam against our healthcare delivery.</p>
<p>Our infant mortality (first of all it's not at the bottom) is lower than other nations only because of the babies born to drug abusing moms. This has nothing to do with the availability of prenatal care or the availability of excellent obstetrics for indigent patients, it has to do with drug addicts not making it a real priority to avail themselves of these services.</p>
<p>Our life expectancy rates (also not terrible) are driven down also by drug abuse and violent crime, and again do not reflect healthcare delivery, but the fact that drug addicts do not access available healthcare.</p>
<p>In the measures that actually relate to healthcare quality, like your probability of surviving your first heart attack, or your likelyhood of getting a kidney transplant rather than spending the rest of your life on dialysis, or the likelyhood of your next transfusion being free of HIV and hepatitis C, the American system which you so malign is at the top.</p>
<p>I happily drive a Saturn. I don't have (or want) an Irish nurse. If I am richer than you (which I don't know and have no interest in finding out) I assume that in a free market that's because I'm generating more value for other people than you are. You sound very bitter with your lot, and I encourage you to pursue the many opportunities in this country to earn yourself a BMW and an Irish nurse.</p>Jordan Hirsch commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503e7f9a88332005-05-27T03:30:45Z2008-02-14T04:36:16ZJordan HirschPsycho, and anyone else who cares to listen: I do think you have a right to earn a living. And...<p>Psycho, and anyone else who cares to listen: I do think you have a right to earn a living. And I do think medical school is real expensive and hard. <br />
So? It's hard work to become anything worthwhile, and some of those thing don't pay so much. <br />
Having said that, I would never expect the kind of outlay students are required to make in a socialized medical system. Obviously, some kind of arrangement would have to be made to ensure the affordability of medical school for those interested in becoming doctors. <br />
all I know is, health care is too expensive, doctors are richer than I am, insurance companies are way richer than doctors, and the US is shamefully low in infant mortality and life expectancy rates. Something needs to be fixed, and while i think the insurance companies are the main culprits, I will not mourn overmuch if being an MD does not automatically entitle you to a BMW and an Irish nurse to sleep with. <br />
</p>psychotoddler commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550520bf388342005-05-27T00:31:29Z2008-02-14T04:36:08Zpsychotoddlerhttp://psychotoddler.blogspot.comJack, you can toss my salad anytime! I just love a man with a big bushy beard! Dang it! Look...<p>Jack, you can toss my salad anytime! I just love a man with a big bushy beard!</p>
<p>Dang it! Look what you made do! I promised Trep no more sleaze!</p>Jack commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503e7f9b88332005-05-26T21:41:19Z2008-02-14T04:36:16ZJackhttp://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/you guys can continue to 'toss one-another's salads' to your heart's content. I am not sure that my wife would...<p><i>you guys can continue to 'toss one-another's salads' to your heart's content.</i></p>
<p>I am not sure that my wife would approve of that. This calls for a beer and contemplation.</p>psychotoddler commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503e823588332005-05-26T17:28:37Z2008-02-14T04:36:38Zpsychotoddlerhttp://psychotoddler.blogspot.comJordan--for all the expense and effort that went into becoming a doctor, not to mention the ridiculous hours that I...<p>Jordan--for all the expense and effort that went into becoming a doctor, not to mention the ridiculous hours that I have to keep, I think I have a right to try to earn a living. I'm not sure what keeps the medical system going in Israel--probably taxes. </p>
<p>However there's no question that there's something very wrong going on in the US that needs fixing. Commodity? It's a profession for me, and one which not many people can do or would want to do.</p>AmyS commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550520efc88342005-05-26T14:38:52Z2008-02-14T04:36:38ZAmyShttp://www.postcardsfromisrael.comI can understand your feelings about Lag B'Omer - when we celebrated with my in-laws it was alot of fun....<p>I can understand your feelings about Lag B'Omer - when we celebrated with my in-laws it was alot of fun. Hag Sameach, and I hope your back is doing better already!</p>David commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550520c8888342005-05-26T05:54:39Z2008-02-14T04:36:16ZDavidhttp://www.treppenwitz.comPsychotoddler... The folks at Mcgraw-Hill define double entendre as a "Word or phrase in comedy that has a double meaning,...<p>Psychotoddler... The folks at Mcgraw-Hill define double entendre as a "Word or phrase in comedy that has a double meaning, the second meaning often being sexual". Most of what you kids have been tossing around has lacked that original non-sexual meaning! :-) I don't mind, though. So long as nobody's sensibilities are offended you guys can continue to 'toss one-another's salads' to your heart's content. =;~p</p>
<p>Jordan... Sleazy might be the wrong word. If I knew a word for having criminally mixed-up priorities I would recommend it to you. Despite all the finger-pointing, this lack of will to take on universal healthcare seems to be one of the only truly bipartisan issues.</p>
<p>Stacey... I appreciate the compliment, as well as the implied concern. However, unless my condition takes a drastic turn for the worse I am not likely to make much more than a passing reference to it in the future. I really don't want to turn into one of those people who sits around discussing my ailments with anyone who will listen. I have a few years (hopefully) before I reach that age.</p>Stacey commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503e7f6e88332005-05-26T04:12:15Z2008-02-14T04:36:14ZStaceyhttp://pesharachel.blogspot.comI think this is one of the most interesting posts you've written. Keep us updated on your progress with the...<p>I think this is one of the most interesting posts you've written. Keep us updated on your progress with the natural approach. I'm eager to hear how you fare with it.</p>Jordan Hirsch commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503e7feb88332005-05-26T00:00:07Z2008-02-14T04:36:19ZJordan HirschThere is nothing sleazy about double entendres. There is something sleazy about a country that looks at health care as...<p>There is nothing sleazy about double entendres. There is something sleazy about a country that looks at health care as a commercial commodity. <br />
</p>psychotoddler commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550520e5188342005-05-25T20:55:00Z2008-02-14T04:36:31Zpsychotoddlerhttp://psychotoddler.blogspot.comI can't speak for Jack, but I'd like to apologize to David for hijacking this post and filling it with...<p>I can't speak for Jack, but I'd like to apologize to David for hijacking this post and filling it with sleazy double-entendres.</p>
<p>I will now go and fill Jack's blog with sleazy double-entendres.</p>Jack commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550520cd488342005-05-25T20:10:40Z2008-02-14T04:36:18ZJackhttp://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/Jack... Sometimes an eggplant is just an eggplant. But a good cigar is a smoke.<p><i>Jack... Sometimes an eggplant is just an eggplant.</i></p>
<p>But a good cigar is a smoke.</p>psychotoddler commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550520d6988342005-05-25T19:36:13Z2008-02-14T04:36:24Zpsychotoddlerhttp://psychotoddler.blogspot.comAn eggplant? That's just not right. Unless you're going for that "hernia" look.<p>An eggplant? That's just not right. Unless you're going for that "hernia" look.</p>David commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550520ba488342005-05-25T18:54:30Z2008-02-14T04:36:01ZDavidhttp://www.treppenwitz.comAmyS... No, although I can assure you the pain reached nightmare proportions before I saw fit to see a doctor....<p>AmyS... No, although I can assure you the pain reached nightmare proportions before I saw fit to see a doctor. Thanks for the good wishes. BTW, I read what you wrote about Lag B'Omer and while I also worry about the danger involved with mixing kids and bonfires... I still love the holiday.</p>
<p>Timna... How true. Israelis gripe about their healthcare system... until they have to make do without it. I hope I don't have to many occasions to bump up against the system. </p>
<p>Jack... Sometimes an eggplant is just an eggplant.</p>Jack commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503e7ffe88332005-05-25T18:08:18Z2008-02-14T04:36:19ZJackhttp://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/Psychotoddler... "A cucumber works better for me If you really want to make an impression you ought to consider using...<p><i>Psychotoddler... "A cucumber works better for me</i></p>
<p>If you really want to make an impression you ought to consider using an eggplant.</p>timna commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503e80c188332005-05-25T17:13:30Z2008-02-14T04:36:26Ztimnahttp://www.gal.typepad.comI hope you're feeling better. Health care in Beer Sheva has been good to us as a family; my husband...<p>I hope you're feeling better.<br />
Health care in Beer Sheva has been good to us as a family; my husband and kids were born there. I do remember being a patient in a foreign language and while I was very glad to be taken care of, I didn't know that I was on a fast and ate (a pear, I knew the word for pear after that!)...<br />
we were quite shocked to go back to the States and find out how awful it is to be without adequate health coverage (grad school coverage didn't cover prescriptions, for example). imagine calling around till you get to the cheapest antibiotic. or standing 6 hours in a mall for the free school vaccination. made Beer Sheva look pretty good. </p>AmyS commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503e7f5288332005-05-25T17:00:53Z2008-02-14T04:36:14ZAmyShttp://www.postcardsfromisrael.comI kept expecting you to say it was all a dream! LOL I'm sorry about your lower back pain (been...<p>I kept expecting you to say it was all a dream! LOL I'm sorry about your lower back pain (been there, done that - including surgery for a ruptured disk), but glad your experience in Beer Sheva was such a good one. Good luck with the treatments - may you have a speedy and complete recovery!</p>David commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550520baf88342005-05-25T16:03:47Z2008-02-14T04:36:01ZDavidhttp://www.treppenwitz.comAlice... My experience with the healthcare system here is so limited that I would hesitate to make any blanket pronouncements...<p>Alice... My experience with the healthcare system here is so limited that I would hesitate to make any blanket pronouncements about how it compares to other countries. But I do agree with some of the sentiments expressed here that the hallmark of a civilized country is a commitment to looking after the health of all its citizens.</p>
<p>Psychotoddler... "<em>A cucumber works better for me</em> Hey, whatever floats your boat! We have a strict 'don't ask - don't tell policy here at treppenwitz. ;-)<br />
</p>psychotoddler commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550520b9f88342005-05-25T15:44:48Z2008-02-14T04:36:00Zpsychotoddlerhttp://psychotoddler.blogspot.comJack: ambles up to the urinal and a salad tumbles out of his pants. That image actually made me giggle....<p><i>Jack: ambles up to the urinal and a salad tumbles out of his pants.</p>
<p>That image actually made me giggle. Thank you!</i></p>
<p>A cucumber works better for me.</p>
<p>Ow did I just say that!</p>Alice (in Texas) commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503e7e9588332005-05-25T11:42:20Z2008-02-14T04:36:00ZAlice (in Texas)The thing about the socialized medicine in the UK is, it's patchy. When it comes to, say, cancer diagnosis, the...<p>The thing about the socialized medicine in the UK is, it's patchy. When it comes to, say, cancer diagnosis, the low-spots of socialized medicine can effectively kill you. And they do.</p>
<p>I dunno. I am hoping for a time when comprehensive insurance becomes a lot more affordable than it is in the US at the moment, but also those who genuinely can't afford it get free treatment according to their needs. I don't think either the US or the UK systems, at opposite ends of the spectrum, work perfectly well. But maybe Israel has got the balance just right- or at least, better! </p>David commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503e7e8f88332005-05-25T11:02:30Z2008-02-14T04:36:00ZDavidhttp://www.treppenwitz.comSavtadotty... Thanks for the advice. I can't really think about paying a personal trainer right now... but I will try...<p>Savtadotty... Thanks for the advice. I can't really think about paying a personal trainer right now... but I will try to keep up with whatever advice I get from the chiropractor and massage therapist/PT.</p>savtadotty commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550520c4288342005-05-25T09:12:25Z2008-02-14T04:36:14Zsavtadottyhttp://savtadotty.blogspot.comMy best friend the Orthopedic Surgeon is very adamant on this point: Try Everything Before Surgery. When I consulted him...<p>My best friend the Orthopedic Surgeon is very adamant on this point: Try Everything Before Surgery. When I consulted him with my sudden back problem four years ago (by phone, because he is in NYC and I am in Tel Aviv) he gave me exactly the same advice as my local Maccabbe orthopod did (after asking some key diagnostic questions about what hurt when I did what): rest, physical therapy and exercise. Maccabbi paid for six PT sessions of about 15 minutes each, by which time the pain had subsided. I decided to continue with PT (I now consider PT an abbreviation for Personal Trainer rather than Physical Therapy) privately for one hour a week and have been doing so ever since (that's FOUR YEARS!) as Preventive Medicine (I'm aleady old, and getting younger now). It has made me a great believer in PT. Caveat: as in every other profession, you have to find a good one. </p>David commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503e7f9888332005-05-25T06:26:59Z2008-02-14T04:36:16ZDavidhttp://www.treppenwitz.comShloimy... I hope she is right about that. They told me that I shouldn't expect any overnight miracles... and indeed...<p>Shloimy... I hope she is right about that. They told me that I shouldn't expect any overnight miracles... and indeed no miracles occurred during the night. I'm still in pain... but cautiously optimistic. :-)</p>
<p>Jack... OK, you got me with that one [wipes water off of computer monitor]. :-)</p>
<p>Doctor Bean... I giggled too, but for a different reason. You see, a typical Israeli wouldn't miss an opportunity to tell you that you didn't cut up the vegetables into small enough pieces... even if said vegetables were revealed on the bathroom floor!</p>
<p>Kay... I'm actually a bit surprised to hear you say that Australia doesn't include these kinds of treatments under it's national insurance. I would have thought enlightened Australia would be on the leading edge of supporting alternative medicine and such. Thanks for the good wishes.</p>
<p>Christopher... There are two sides of every issue (although in this case one side is much larger than the other). Obviously the government owes its population some sort of universal coverage system. However, there needs to also be a bottom-up re-education of the public about well care and nutrition. Many families that are entitled to nominal healthcare through medicare and medicaid today do not avail themselves of the services except in emergencies. Using a hospital emergency room as one's family doctor is not a promising pattern of family care (not to mention extremely expensive). In all this, the poorer sector of society is always the loser... which means that even if universal healthcare is instituted... there will be a disproportionate caseload of poorer clients because they see healthcare as a way to treat ilness, rather than a way to stay healthy. Clearly some kind of sweeping educational initiative would need to accompany any sort of universal healthcare initiative.</p>christopher commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550520d1388342005-05-25T05:07:19Z2008-02-14T04:36:21Zchristopherhttp://naze.netI live in the Pacific Northwest of the U.S. and am lucky enough to have good medical insurance and a...<p>I live in the Pacific Northwest of the U.S. and am lucky enough to have good medical insurance and a quality HMO. Mostly what people have mentioned here has to do with the quality of the care, which is obviously important. But the real tragedy of healthcare in America is how many don't receive it at all.</p>
<p>Given the enormous headache and cost it is for businesses, it's incomprehensible that we don't have universal coverage. From a moral point of view, it is unconscionable.</p>
<p>How strange we must seem to our developed counterparts around the world...</p>Kay commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e5503e7eee88332005-05-25T04:01:03Z2008-02-14T04:36:07ZKayhttp://www.kayoz.comPS, Hope your back pain is quickly taken care of David.<p>PS, Hope your back pain is quickly taken care of David.</p>Kay commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550520c1988342005-05-25T04:00:18Z2008-02-14T04:36:12ZKayhttp://www.kayoz.comIt's interesting to read all the comments on socialised medicine and what a worry it is for American's. Living in...<p>It's interesting to read all the comments on socialised medicine and what a worry it is for American's. Living in a country with semi-socialised medicine (complementary therapies like chiro, acupuncture etc. are not included) I wouldn't be without it. But the interesting part is that American's worry about such a system, whereas we are fond of thinking how awful it would be to live with the US system. Eek! :)</p>Doctor Bean commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550520c5488342005-05-24T23:45:37Z2008-02-14T04:36:14ZDoctor Beanhttp://kerckhoff.blogspot.comJack: ambles up to the urinal and a salad tumbles out of his pants. That image actually made me giggle....<p>Jack: <i>ambles up to the urinal and a salad tumbles out of his pants.</i></p>
<p>That image actually made me giggle. Thank you!</p>Jack commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550520c9288342005-05-24T23:37:08Z2008-02-14T04:36:16ZJackhttp://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/Jack... Don't encourage him. I was all set to ignore the cabbage remark and you had to take it further!...<p><i>Jack... Don't encourage him. I was all set to ignore the cabbage remark and you had to take it further! :-)</i></p>
<p>So I shouldn't say that everything goes better with ranch. </p>Doctor Bean commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550520cda88342005-05-24T21:02:05Z2008-02-14T04:36:19ZDoctor Beanhttp://kerckhoff.blogspot.comYour offer of a retainer is very generous. If possible, I would like to negotiate to collect it in BBQed...<p>Your offer of a retainer is very generous. If possible, I would like to negotiate to collect it in BBQed cow whenever my family is fortunate enough to be able to visit Israel. The Bogners have a standing invitation in Los Angeles, but, sadly, we only grill.</p>David Bailey commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550520c0c88342005-05-24T19:42:31Z2008-02-14T04:36:12ZDavid BaileyI really enjoy your blog. I'm always rewarded with a chuckle or two. Best wishes to you and your family.<p>I really enjoy your blog. I'm always rewarded with a chuckle or two. Best wishes to you and your family.</p>Shloimy commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550520d5088342005-05-24T19:21:15Z2008-02-14T04:36:23ZShloimyhttp://www.jewishmuzic.blogspot.comWell that's great to hear. My mother is a PT and I asked her once regarding MT since a friend...<p>Well that's great to hear. My mother is a PT<br />
and I asked her once regarding MT since a friend of mine was also having lower back pain ( he was only 29 at the time) and she <br />
said it works well to relieve the pain so way to go.</p>David commented on 'I [heart] socialized medicine!'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d8341c581e53ef00e550520d4988342005-05-24T18:42:01Z2008-02-14T04:36:23ZDavidhttp://www.treppenwitz.comBeth... When things start hurting, my first inclination was not to think of natural medicine. However, I also don't like...<p>Beth... When things start hurting, my first inclination was not to think of natural medicine. However, I also don't like the idea of surgery either. So, I'm pleased that this route is open to me until such time as my doctor and I decide it isn't helping (and I hope that day doesn't arrive). In the mean time my first tipul (treatment) went well today. I'm a bit sore from the massage and a little freaked from the acupuncture... but I've certainly no worse off than when I woke up this morning. Maybe even a touch better.</p>
<p>Oceanguy... At least you don't have to seek treatment at the VA hospital! That's gotta be worth something, right? :-) Good luck and Refuah Shelaimah.</p>
<p>Val... You know that old saw "I know you are but what am I?" Well seeing as you're my [much] older sister I think it would be a bit foolish to start arguing over who is in fact getting old, don't you? :-)</p>
<p>Ilona... That's a very good point. We tend to value things more when we can assign a 'worth' to goods and services. Since there are different tiers of coverage (free base medical coverage plus various additional and private supplemental plans) here in Israel, I think people do have a sense of their insurance's worth.</p>
<p>Doctor Bean... As I was writing this I realized that you and psychotoddler may see things from a different perspective. I happen to feel that Israeli doctors are vastly underpaid for the level of training they must attain and the value of the services they perform. However, in an economy as shaky as ours, it would be a catastrophe if universal healthcare were not available. Also, thanks for the advice about medicating myself. I should probably put you on retainer for all the free medical advice you've offered my family over the past year or so! I'm starting to feel a little guilty since I usually get my doctor friends liquored up before I pump them for free advice! :-)</p>
<p>Katie-Yael... I should warn you that most Israelis don't get free dental/orthodontic coverage with their plan. I happen to have it for my family because my company offers supplemental coverage to its employees. I would suggest you finish your treatments before you come!</p>
<p>Just Passing Through... Most of my Canadian friends rave about the level of health care they receive, but grip about the wait to receive it. I suppose there is give and take with everything.</p>
<p>Jack... Don't encourage him. I was all set to ignore the cabbage remark and you had to take it further! :-) </p>
<p>kakarizz... Mystery man... who are you? I went to your site and saw this neat flash picture and then... nothing! Anyway, maybe I've just been living a sheltered life, but what is this adult remedy of which you speak???</p>
<p>Naomi... See, right there is how I know you married the wrong man! :-) Seriously, my wife jokes that she married me because of my massage skills. I didn't mind the acupuncture so much today. Although the one in the side of my hand and the two in the sides of my ribcage sorta made me want to roll over and bake a crustless floor pizza.</p>
<p>Essie... So far so good (tfu tfu tfu). Let's just say that if something is holding you back... it shouldn't be the healthcare system.</p>
<p>Psychotoddler... Like I said in an earlier comment. I think it is reasonable to pursue an 8 week course of alternative treatment before sitting down with a guy who sees every problem as having a surgical solution. :-) I also liked that an MD is overseeing the entire treatment process and has empowered me to switch to a more traditional track if we see I'm not getting relief. I will let you know how things go (although probably off-line since I think my medical condition holds limited appeal to most of the folks who come here).</p>
<p>Tmeishar... I have to admit that I was a bit of a baby about the acupuncture. I actually held the guy's wrist and asked him about a hundred questions before I would let him start sticking me. He was a good sport about it, and even made a funny at the end when he pretended to have forgotten how many needles he put in. :-)</p>
<p>Shloimy... First off, you should go back and notice that I was careful not to make a blanket endorsement of socialized medicine. At this moment in time I love it because my expereinces with it have been entirely positive. Just as the say in the investment ads, 'past performance is no indication of future results'. As far as the chiropractic advice goes... I have to say that there is some good science behind some of what chiropractors do. I don't subscribe to the back-crackers who say they can strengthen my immune system, make my hair grow or cure my cold just by giving me an adjustment every week for the rest of my life. Also, the person doing the massage therapy is also a physical therapist (it just worked out that way) so I think I'm pretty well covered over here. Thanks for the advice though.</p>